You did not just go there...

[liz_marcs]

I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.

Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)

[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]

I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.

I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.

Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.

Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.

Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.

But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.

However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.

That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.

In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.

As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.

Let me explain something:

• No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
  
  
• No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
  
  
• No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
  

I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."

Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.

However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!

You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.

Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.

And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).

Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.

Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.

Comments

[invisionary.livejournal.com]

Oh god, that reminds me of the "Writing slash is like marching for civil rights in Selma, Alabama because they both challenge the white male power structure" posts I've seen on occasion. I just.... I don't even know what to say to stuff like that, I really don't.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It's even more infuriating if, y'know, you've actually been involved with the issue/lived through it. Or at least in my case, it is.

I advocated for equality marriage in RL and online. I've called to make sure my state reps were on the right side of it. I made sure to vote people on the wrong side of the issue out of office. I even made fun of out-of-state callers trying to convince me that "teh homos are tryin' ta destroy all hets!" while they were on the phone with me.

I mean, Jesus. What the fuck? Way to lose perspective there, mate.

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

Equality marriage, eh? I did not know that.

:makes note to change vocabulary:

People are comparing fanfic to equality marriage? Sheez, I'm outta the loop. Maybe it's the erronious idea that all fanfic is slash, and therefore 'gay' that did it.

What a mess. Fandom is not a life-threatening thing, unless you're a character in the hands of an overwrought no0bie scribbler. People who are perceived to be outside the bounds of the dominant culture's perceptions of relationships, religions or culture are in a life-threatening situation. Gay, Pagan, foreign, eccentric... all equal danger. I've been there: To fearful people- different = death.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

As I explained below, equality marriage seems to be in use in my neck of the woods (just outside of Boston). I've also seen it referred to that way in the GLBT and alternative press. The mainstream press still uses same-sex marriage, which I think is a phrase that actually obscures the real issue (someone's sexuality vs someone's civil rights).

It's the use of "gay marriage" in that post that especially sticks in my craw, and in my mind is another sign that the OP is kind of...clueless.

But, yeah. Generally, fandom is not going to get your sent to the hospital or the morgue if you come out of the closet (so to speak).

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

When did it become equality marriage? I thought the correct term was same-sex marriage?

Not arguing point - though I've yet to see a post in favor of OTW - but it's just I haven't heard the term before.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

That's the term I've seen/heard on the ground in my neck of the woods since the state Legislature resolved the issue a few months ago. It's still "same-sex marriage" in the mainstream press, although I've seen "equality marriage" in the GLBT and alternative press.

Then again, the use of "equality marriage" in RL could be the people I hang/work with.

I think there may be a push to phase out "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" since it honestly doesn't really sum up the reality as well as "equality marriage." Because, really, all GLBT people want is the same rights and responsibilities as every other citizen, right?

[cryptic-thinky.livejournal.com]

So...her view of marriage (with all attendant legal and religious results) is that it is the property of heterosexual couples, and everyone else is appropriating the idea for their own enjoyment?

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I think the argument is pretty incoherent myself.

[serendu.livejournal.com]

*blinks*

As an analogy that really is very bad, and shocking bad taste too.

I felt like I was reading metaphorical poetry for the first time and wondering 'eh'? Especially with the comments agreeing. No, really it isn't comparable.

I knew there was a reason why I'd been avoiding reading OTW metafandom stuff recently.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

You're better off. I've sat on my hands a few times over the past week or two with some of the OTW posts, but like I said...

Third time in three days where I've seen this post linked. And the responses...what the hell? I can't imagine no one has responded with, "Are you out of your mind?" And yet...I don't see any responses like that at all.

[elf]

'Sokay if people flame me; I was wincing when I wrote it; I knew how badly hyperbolic it. It's an incomplete thought, and it comes off stronger than I'd like. (Not excusing it. Just letting you know I'm aware of the problem. Some of it, anyway.) Yes, I went too far. Would rather go too far sometimes than let certain insights get away because I couldn't articulate them well enough when they hit. I'll know how much too far, how accurate or not the insight was, in part from the feedback I get. (And I'm no stranger to flamewars; I've participated in enough that it's certainly my turn to be on the receiving end.)

It's a semantics problem, I think. And it may be that I'm just not being careful enough with my language. I don't mean "anti-fanficcism is as oppresive as anti-samesex-marriageism." I do mean that the kind of opposition same-sex marriage faces is the same kind of opposition thrown at fanfic... on a much smaller scale, for the fanfic.

No, nobody gets beat up for fanfic. But they do lose career opportunities. And depending on the kind of fanfic, can have their jobs or parenthood threatened... can be told they're involved in a hobby too "indecent" to allow them contact with children.

I know several teachers who write slash and are very careful not to allow personal info in their posts, because they fear they'll lose their jobs.

No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic

No, but they have been treated like a second-class citizen by publishing houses and non-fanfic authors. Fanfic *readers* get treated that way... anyone who admits to being a fanfic author in a group of pro authors is well on her way to a dead writing career.

No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic

Is "the right to free speech" a civil right?

---

I perceive them as similar patterns on a very different scale. I'm not saying fanfic is like same-sex marriage in the way that interracial marriage is like same-sex marriage, nor in the way that the right to vote is like same-sex marriage--that it's a basic civil right that only evil white male oppressors want to take away from the poor downtrodden minorities.

I'm saying it's like same sex marriage in that it draws the same kind of oppositions: people who are squicked by it believe it should therefor be illegal, and make up bizarre explanations unsupported by law or cultural reality about why everyone else should be forced to not squick them.

Same (or similar) structure of problem, not the same scale or meaning or importance.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I...what? Are you serious?

No, really. I've read your response several times and you're still not making any sense.

For the zillionth time: free speech has nothing to do with commercial enterprises and personal property. Free speech means that the U.S. government can't quash your right to say what you want where you want, provided you're not falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater, or defaming or libeling someone.

It does not, and never has, applied to fanfic. It does not, and never has, apply to private property, copyrighted materials, commercial enterprises, or the like. Free speech doesn't even apply to LJ, and that's even when it was owned by a U.S. company. Why? Because LJ is not a governmental institution.

Furthermore, being told by people who think fanfic writing is a stupid hobby and by copyright owners that they don't want you appropriating the source material for your own fanworks is not harshing on your "right to free speech" and is not squashing your civil rights, no matter how hard you squint. And saying it's true, does not make it true no matter how many times you say it or make that argument.

Opposition to fanfic is not at all like opposition to someone's right to get married to someone they love.

One is a hobby. One is a real live human being.

You can stop writing fanfic.

You cannot stop being gay, bi, or straight. Sure, you can go into denial, and act like you're not any of those things, but it doesn't change who you are.

You see the difference, right?

And no, one pattern is nothing at all like the other.

For a start, there is no inherent right to fanfic. No, really. There isn't. The issues around fanfic are commercial issues, not an issue involving someone's right to have equal protection under the law. Fanfiction has no legal protection in the U.S. because we don't own the source material. Now, we may be in fandoms where the copyright owners are just fine with fanfic and other fanworks to the point of encouraging it (provided they're the only ones to make money off of it). There are other fandoms where the copyright owners are not okay with it and will stomp it out if they see it.

Know what? The copyright owners have every single right to stomp out fanworks if they want to. They own the source material.

A better analogy is this: fanworks is a lot like borrowing a car. Some car owners are perfectly cool with giving you free access to the keys and letting you take the car for a spin, provided you don't start charging all your friends when you decide to give them a ride. Some car owners don't want you touching their car at all, and will call the police and/or their lawyer if they see you looking at the car funny.

I write fanfiction, so guess which car owner I think is right? But know what? I respect that car owner that wants me to stay away from the car. That's my choice, because I think it's the right thing to do. But I'm not going to get on anyone who decides to write fanfic in fandoms where the copyright owner is opposed, either.

And, yes, I agree, commercial issues may impact you professionally should you get outed, but they're not going to take away your civil rights just because you write fanfic. However, it's happening less and less these days. There are authors out there right now who've gotten book contracts because of their fanfic (Hello, Cassie Claire). There are teachers using fanfic to teach creative writing (I have a couple on my Flist).

So the whole, "Onoes! I'm being oppressed because I write fanfic!" does not fly, especially when you make such an insulting, not to mention offensive, comparison between someone's hobby and someone's civil rights.

[lynnenne]

I agree with your post. No one has ever been beaten to death for writing fanfic. Fanfic can never be compared to an issue as fundamental as equality marriage. My civil rights have never been violated by writing fanfic. But I have some concerns that perhaps they could be.

I work in the PR profession. It's my job to help the companies I work for present a positive image to the public. As such, I feel I have to be very careful in separating my online persona from my work life. I'm in Canada, but the majority of companies I represent are headquartered in the U.S. Most of them would not be happy to discover that one of their representatives is writing slash online. They would argue that "it's not the kind of image we want to portray," and would probably ask to have me removed from their accounts. I fear that I could even be fired for my online activities.

So, yeah, I certainly don't feel oppressed by society at large, and in no way would I consider my situation equivalent to the strugle for equal rights. But there are fears there. Given the corporate climate in America these days, and the opposition we've already encountered from LJ, I feel those fears are justified.

I don't know whether OTW will help the situation or not. I fear it may even make it worse. Like you, I'm skeptical. But I'm willing to be convinced.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I'm not exactly open that I write fanfic either, and I write gen for heaven's sake.

I work in the publishing field where copyright is A VERY BIG DEAL, so if it came out that I cheerfully violate copyrights on a regular basis even though the copyright holder is cool with it, there's a shot the consequences for me wouldn't be pleasant.

But as I pointed out above: it's a commercial concern and not a civil right concern. A lot of the problem is that fanfic and other fan art falls into a somewhat grey area where it only matters if the copyright holder asserts their ownership against it. I know other countries handle the issue differently (Japan, for start). Also, acceptance of fan art is currently in flux, where you're seeing it more in the mainstream, but full acceptance isn't there yet.

Do I think at some point there'll be wider acceptance of it as more and more people find out what it is? Probably. Do I think OTW is the way to go? Like you, I'm not convinced and also fear that it may make things worse. I'd rather it diffuse and go slow, because I'm afraid that pushing for too much too fast would land us into an RIAA scenario, and that's one place we don't want to go.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

GOD, it's, it's, I mean - it's not even hyperbole, really, it's beyond exaggerating the case, it just doesn't even make any sense.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'm glad it's not just me.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. This isn't the first time I've seen fannish behavior compared to gay marriage/being closeted/etc and every time I see it, it rubs me the wrong way. I love fandom. It's a huge part of my life and is very important to me. I do think there are legitimate concerns about legality and legitimacy, and while I have huge reservations about OTW myself, I'm willing to wait and see. Maybe it will help. I don't know. But I DO know that arguments like that just read as reactionary and inflammatory and don't do anything but irritate me.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Exactly. You sum up everything I'm feeling in a few pithy sentences. :-)

[mosca.livejournal.com]

General nodding and agreement. When I read the post, it reminded me of the internet rule that states that the argument is officially over when Hitler gets mentioned, because nothing compares to that. And here I am making an insidious comparison, myself, but I think you see what I'm saying. By comparing the "oppression" of fanfic writers to marriage rights, she's instantly proving that they're not at all in the same league.

I do want to note that "equality marriage" is not a universally accepted term -- some of us are not entirely keen on removing "gay"/"same sex" from the phrase, since it moves the discussion away from queer rights. I've heard it thrown around occasionally here (and I do live in a civil union state) but I didn't realize it had caught on so thoroughly in MA.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I think it caught on here (and I'm not saying it's universal in MA at all, it may be just in my area) simply because of the way the GLBT community framed the argument.

The framed argument was, "Why are you putting people's civil rights up to a popular vote? What would happen if this was about minorities? Would you think it's okay then?"

So, the argument centered more on "fairness" and "equal protection for all citizens in the eyes of the law" rather than the identities of the people involved. In the case of MA, I think that was precisely the right argument to make, because it convinced quite a few fence-sitters to take a better look at the issue beyond the knee-jerk reaction.

Would it work everywhere? I'm less sure about that. And I can see where you're coming from on the "gay"/"same sex" issue, so consider me schooled on that issue. :-)

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

I've never had a lot of patience for meta-anything. I worked as support staff in a couple of universities too long not to recognize the sort of self-inflating circle-jerk language that puts Significance and Relevance and all that there good stuff into the Discussion of Issues ... to the point where it mainly seems to be about convincing the participants and onlookers how important, perceptive, and all-round nifty it is to talk about things rather than do something about it.

Got something to say? Write a story. Show me what you mean. Got a political passion? Get out there and find a candidate, get an issue on the ballot, or run for office yourself. Don't wait for someone to fix it. "Passion without politics is mere sentimentality." DO something. Do it in the real world, where it will make a difference. I swear, if all the energy thrown into the LJ Strikeout fiasco had been channeled into genuine political action, we might not be looking at two equally owned choices for 2008.

As to the idea of having an all-encompassing fannish sanctuary? Best of luck. I've found that a fanfic list starts getting unweildy if it gets much larger than about 50 participants. (This was also true of women's "consciousness-raising" groups in the women's movement of the 1970's, except the critical mass was smaller.) As Lewis Thomas observed in one of his essays about academia (and no, I am not going to go look it up so I can cite the fucker), in almost any human conclave, the issues under discussion quickly cease to be about the issues and become, instead, about the egos of those discussing them. If the endearingly earnest organizers of OTW (an unfortunate acronym that my brain insists on translating as One True Wank) want to have a go at it, I really do wish them well. It would be great if someone can find a formula that can take thousands of disparate personalities and find a way for them to co-exist in peace and harmony. It's a noble endeavor.

However... the inflating of the Importance of the Mission, right from the get-go, doesn't bode well. People engaged in important work are usually too busy working to spend much time preaching its importance to the choir.

As to the relative importance of slash-fic and equal rights under the law...? Well, I see them as two facets of the same jewel. Fanfic is beautifully subversive, and I don't think it's fair to underestimate the effect it can have. Slashfic gave me a positive image of same-sex relationships before I ever came out, even to myself. My wife and I came out and were handfasted in fandom, with tremendous support from all the people who mattered. Slash fandom created a community in which our love was celebrated, and I cannot overestimate the value that has to our lives. Slashfic has crept into the mainstream, too, infiltrating public awareness in a way that would have been unthinkable thirty years ago. Brokeback, Girls Don't Cry, Torchwood, even soap operas ... those aren't entirely separate from slash fandom. Slash fans buy pro s/s stories. Hell, we write them.

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn of cases where slash-writers ran into social conflict, even abuse from husbands or parents. I'm sure it is not as widespread as the ordinary sort of gay-bashing, but I do know a number of slash writers who are utterly closeted from their husbands and mundane associates. A closet is a closet is a closet. I'm not altogether sure that one has much of a choice when it comes to not writing... from where I sit (at the keyboard,) what I write is who I am.

Some people write, some talk about writing, some do both. I would die of boredom if I had to endure a mountain of meta. But I don't. And now that I've managed to argue for or against both sides of the topic, it's time to go finish another story.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I've been tied up in other arguments breaking out.

To echo what someone else said in response to someone else: I think you're conflating an anti-fanfic attitude with an anti-GLBT attitude. Sometimes they intersect, as in the case of slash fiction. However, the ambient anti-GLBT attitude is a completely separate issue from fanfiction. How many of those same people would hide they write fanfiction if they weren't writing slash?

I'm not being nasty here. I'm being dead serious.

The other problem I have with your argument is that you seem to be saying that fanfiction = slash. That is not true in general, let alone in the details. It's a bad argument to say so and one a disagree with.

Now is slash a large subgenre of fanfiction? Sure. But it's not even close to all of fanfiction. I'd argue that it's not even half of all of fanfiction out there. Someone on my FList did a study (SPN fandom and HP fandom, I think), and found that the majority of fanfiction out there is actually gen. Now the numbers may be different depending on the fandom (some fandoms may be more predisposed to having majority m/m slash, some to majority f/f slash, some to het, and some to gen), but I think it's wrong to automatically say fanfiction = slash because it's simply not true.

That said, I sort of see your point. Fanfiction (like any other creative endeavor) is liable to help people come to terms with things in their personal lives, be it sexual orientation or some other issue. And maybe slash fanfiction in particular did have some small positive effect in GLBT acceptance. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand. Let's just say I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be the case.

As for OTW, I agree with you. Going from a simple archive to suddenly having A VERY IMPORTANT MISSION I don't think has helped things at all.

[animeagan.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what to say about any of this, because my mind is sort of blown. I know if I tried to make any argument against the person who made said comparison, it would come out inadequate and garbled and strange.

As such, kudos to you for being able to make such a strong and clear rebuttal.

Though I don't know how to form my thoughts properly in response to this subject, reading your and other people's opinions on matters like this is extremely interesting. I really like all of your posts, and reading everybody's big discussions on them. 'S cool.

So um.. basically I just wanted to say that you're cool! Haha. Thanks for making my day a little more intellectual. <3

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Heee! You're welcome.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of this mess at the moment. But it's interesting reading everyone's take on this. The details in the arguments are pretty interesting angles to look at.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

"fanfiction is like gay marriage"

That sounds so much like a line out of 'Alice Through The Looking Glass' that I can almost hear it.

And it conveys a similar sense of reality....

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Icon luv!

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. :-)

But, yes. Exactly. The OP is having a hard time grasping that, however.

[randomsome1.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This is some heavy-duty crazy and the responses you're getting aren't facilitating conversation from me--just headdesking.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

*hands you Tylenol to counteract the effects of headdesking*

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

The whole OTW thing - the sea of for and against that often has nothing to do with the actual creators or participants themselves - has set off more anger and unfortunate hyperbole than any other work in progress I've ever seen.

For every well thought out discussion essay on either side, there seems to be an equal and opposite ill thought out display of ... unfortunate behavior.

Here's hoping the outbreak of excessive controversy will calm down and slowly peter out.

[skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com]

I've never even heard of the OTW until now. What exactly is it, and am I a bad fan for not having heard of it?

(Although, it looks like it should be the initials for One Twu Wank.

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

I'm forever stunned by the callousness of fans who claim that just reading fanfic/writing fanfic/writing slash = oppression on the level of gay, lesbian, and trans peoples who are threatened physically, made second-class citizens legislatively, and made to be open to countless and continual challenges to their right to just work and live in the same professions/communities as everyone else.

This case seems...even more bothersome than the typical craven thoughtlessness that pops up on a regular basis (ex: someone claiming that any comments challenging the substantive value of a meme -- a meme which requires viewers to agree that they're against prejudice explicitly or be thought prejudiced regardless of any other evidence -- makes the poster of said meme suffer like Matthew Shepherd -- remember that lackwittery?).

Because from what I'm getting reading the comments to this entry, the original poster of this argument was more looking to say something provocative, and is more intrigued by the idea of gaining excessive attention than to making a persuasive -- or even just a rational -- argument. I am at a loss to find any value in such a strategy, besides that of alienating people -- if that's the goal, then I think it's certainly been achieved.

To me this is an example of people in privileged positions making the case that they should be allowed to co-opt the oppressed status of people who are not privileged (i.e., wanting to claim actual suffering for arguments of portioning out of recompense and/or gaining the designation of seriousness for their claims, and/or simply receiving heightened attention of audiences) by people in privileged positions. And before someone gets on my ass about this -- I have NO IDEA if the OP is actual LGBT, but that is not of issue here -- the OP's argument strives to lend that sort of false credibility of suffering and genuine experience of prejudice to anyone simply because they write fanfiction, regardless of their status as heteronormative or queer to any degree.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Hi! I'm drowning!

Have I mentioned that I'm busy trying to hide at work and play with my new cell phone? Because I totally am.

I just wanted to *wave hello* and weep quietly.

Funny enough, it appears the elfweck is not alone in believing that the argument is a good one. There are a couple, in fact and I'm...

Okay, I really don't know many times I can say the same thing.

Have I mentioned that there appears to be one person right now arguing that, ummmm, dismissing elfweck's point is using the same tactics that people use to deprive GLBT people of their civil rights? Because there is. I think. I keep reading it over and over again, and that's pretty what I keep coming up with.

I have to shut off the computer again, because the boggling is hurting my head.

I'm not sure how many times I can say "inappropriate comparison that trivializes your argument" before I start breaking my fingers from pounding on the keyboard so hard out of frustration.

Re: Actually....

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that finding out that you and Bug write fanfic is what caused Bug's family to dislike you? Because that's what I think Liz is talking about, the fanfic writing itself being the sole catalyst for harassment. It sounds like you're talking about people who already have something against you (sexual orientation, if I'm reading your post correctly) and that the fanfic is just another weapon they can use against you.

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

Amen.

(got the link through F_W)

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Hi! Here via a link in fandom_wank and as the person whose journal this whole thing started in I wanted to say thank you for your fresh breath of reality.

I was flabbergasted when the initial comparison was made. I'm glad I'm not the only person standing with my mouth dropped open in outrage.

[(Anonymous)]

"Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx."

Neither's self-righteousness.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

You're a very brave individual.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I remember being outside the Cambridge City Hall when the first same sex couples came out with their licenses. What an amazing fucking night. I'm not sure how someone could confuse basic civil rights with artistic privilege, but then I don't understand a lot of things.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

*nod-nod-nod*

I don't even want to tell you how many times I rewatched the video when the Legislature's final vote tally came down. The overwhelming roar of approval and how the legislators that switched their votes at the last minute got swamped by hugs right after that made me weep like a baby.

[smashfantastic.livejournal.com]

Hi, I agree with everything in this post! (I wish Minnesota was a little more like Massachusetts, seriously.) The original post seems to be locked now, though.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

People *have* lost their jobs for writing slash. People *have* had it used against them in child custody cases. People *have* had their zines confiscated by customs agents.

AFAIK, all these people have been women.

Are pink and blood-red the same color? No, but they're in the same part of the spectrum.

Denying equal marriage rights is not the same thing as violent gay bashing, but they're in the same part of the spectrum, they're two different shades of the same thing. Fanfic in general and slash in particular are also -- or can be, and often have been -- light shades of the queer experience.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

But what you are describing are results of the overall anti-gay bias, not an anti-fanfic-in-general bias. I have no doubt that many people have suffered dire consequences from others finding out that they write slash, but that isn't because people think writing fanfic of any sort is vile. It's because of homophobic sentiments.

I just don't get the whole inability to recognize that the term "fanfic" is not synonymous with "porn" or "gay/lesbian fic."

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

Lacking a sense of perspective.

Yes! That's exactly it. Some of these people are frightening me with how cult like they seem and how their reactions are totally out of proportion to reality. Which is that, this is a hobby that sometimes reflects/affects real life but it is *not* equal to certain other things and if someone thinks that it is, they need to step back and get some perspective.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Yes! Yes exactly my point. :-)