You did not just go there...

[liz_marcs]

I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.

Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)

[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]

I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.

I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.

Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.

Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.

Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.

But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.

However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.

That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.

In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.

As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.

Let me explain something:

• No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
  
  
• No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
  
  
• No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
  

I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."

Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.

However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!

You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.

Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.

And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).

Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.

Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.

Comments

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

I've never had a lot of patience for meta-anything. I worked as support staff in a couple of universities too long not to recognize the sort of self-inflating circle-jerk language that puts Significance and Relevance and all that there good stuff into the Discussion of Issues ... to the point where it mainly seems to be about convincing the participants and onlookers how important, perceptive, and all-round nifty it is to talk about things rather than do something about it.

Got something to say? Write a story. Show me what you mean. Got a political passion? Get out there and find a candidate, get an issue on the ballot, or run for office yourself. Don't wait for someone to fix it. "Passion without politics is mere sentimentality." DO something. Do it in the real world, where it will make a difference. I swear, if all the energy thrown into the LJ Strikeout fiasco had been channeled into genuine political action, we might not be looking at two equally owned choices for 2008.

As to the idea of having an all-encompassing fannish sanctuary? Best of luck. I've found that a fanfic list starts getting unweildy if it gets much larger than about 50 participants. (This was also true of women's "consciousness-raising" groups in the women's movement of the 1970's, except the critical mass was smaller.) As Lewis Thomas observed in one of his essays about academia (and no, I am not going to go look it up so I can cite the fucker), in almost any human conclave, the issues under discussion quickly cease to be about the issues and become, instead, about the egos of those discussing them. If the endearingly earnest organizers of OTW (an unfortunate acronym that my brain insists on translating as One True Wank) want to have a go at it, I really do wish them well. It would be great if someone can find a formula that can take thousands of disparate personalities and find a way for them to co-exist in peace and harmony. It's a noble endeavor.

However... the inflating of the Importance of the Mission, right from the get-go, doesn't bode well. People engaged in important work are usually too busy working to spend much time preaching its importance to the choir.

As to the relative importance of slash-fic and equal rights under the law...? Well, I see them as two facets of the same jewel. Fanfic is beautifully subversive, and I don't think it's fair to underestimate the effect it can have. Slashfic gave me a positive image of same-sex relationships before I ever came out, even to myself. My wife and I came out and were handfasted in fandom, with tremendous support from all the people who mattered. Slash fandom created a community in which our love was celebrated, and I cannot overestimate the value that has to our lives. Slashfic has crept into the mainstream, too, infiltrating public awareness in a way that would have been unthinkable thirty years ago. Brokeback, Girls Don't Cry, Torchwood, even soap operas ... those aren't entirely separate from slash fandom. Slash fans buy pro s/s stories. Hell, we write them.

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn of cases where slash-writers ran into social conflict, even abuse from husbands or parents. I'm sure it is not as widespread as the ordinary sort of gay-bashing, but I do know a number of slash writers who are utterly closeted from their husbands and mundane associates. A closet is a closet is a closet. I'm not altogether sure that one has much of a choice when it comes to not writing... from where I sit (at the keyboard,) what I write is who I am.

Some people write, some talk about writing, some do both. I would die of boredom if I had to endure a mountain of meta. But I don't. And now that I've managed to argue for or against both sides of the topic, it's time to go finish another story.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I've been tied up in other arguments breaking out.

To echo what someone else said in response to someone else: I think you're conflating an anti-fanfic attitude with an anti-GLBT attitude. Sometimes they intersect, as in the case of slash fiction. However, the ambient anti-GLBT attitude is a completely separate issue from fanfiction. How many of those same people would hide they write fanfiction if they weren't writing slash?

I'm not being nasty here. I'm being dead serious.

The other problem I have with your argument is that you seem to be saying that fanfiction = slash. That is not true in general, let alone in the details. It's a bad argument to say so and one a disagree with.

Now is slash a large subgenre of fanfiction? Sure. But it's not even close to all of fanfiction. I'd argue that it's not even half of all of fanfiction out there. Someone on my FList did a study (SPN fandom and HP fandom, I think), and found that the majority of fanfiction out there is actually gen. Now the numbers may be different depending on the fandom (some fandoms may be more predisposed to having majority m/m slash, some to majority f/f slash, some to het, and some to gen), but I think it's wrong to automatically say fanfiction = slash because it's simply not true.

That said, I sort of see your point. Fanfiction (like any other creative endeavor) is liable to help people come to terms with things in their personal lives, be it sexual orientation or some other issue. And maybe slash fanfiction in particular did have some small positive effect in GLBT acceptance. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand. Let's just say I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be the case.

As for OTW, I agree with you. Going from a simple archive to suddenly having A VERY IMPORTANT MISSION I don't think has helped things at all.

[fengi.livejournal.com]

I'd argue not all slash equals porn either - a lot of it may begin with the sex but includes so much story that it becomes regular fiction with sex.

I see the point about acceptance, though I think the increase in open fandom in general has helped as some aspects of fan culture can be said to overlap queer/trans. And maybe this point needs to be made more clearly because decades of Spock/Kirk has yet to counter the intense homophobia and sexism of many comic book guys

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

Actually, I do know a couple of people who are closeted about fanfic that isn't slash. It isn't even sexy... one gal is just uncomfortable about writing HP because it's based on a kid's book. I don't know why it worries her--ghod knows nobody makes a profit from watching football games or bowling or knitting slipcovers for tissue boxes--but she isn't terribly confident about writing at all, and I guess she just doesn't want criticism of any sort from the nearest & dearest. I'd say come out with the writing and let the N&D deal with it, but it's not my relationship.

I'm not conflating anything; I'm saying that when people conceal truth about themselves in response to a perceived threat (and I'm not going to argue cases over what is a valid threat; I'm talking subjective reaction), there's a negative effect on the person. It doesn't matter if it's being gay or writing furry stories (which really hits my wtf? button) or being addicted to jellybeans. Of course the degree varies enormously--nobody's going to be killed for hoarding marshmallow peeps. The possibility of someone being beaten for writing slash fanfic? Extremely remote, but not impossible. Saying "nobody is going to be---" is not the same as saying "It's not likely that anybody is going to be---" There are too damned many crazies in the world.

I do think the OTW folk are more into slash than not, which is likely to be a major stumbling block to the establishment of one all-encompassing archive--a lot of genficcers aren't going to want to be in the same archive as the slashers. Hell, I don't want my stuff in The Greatest Biggest Archive In The Whole World. Bigger isn't better--bigger is more egos bouncing off one another, more flames, more bullshit. And the reward is -- what? A little more fic available without having to track it down? Sorry, when did someone decide that all fic ever written have to be available forever?

This whole project reminds me of the convolutions many of my friends went through in the heyday of the feminist movement--much of the rhetoric is indistinguishable. That movement had much merit and did a lot of good, but also made for some of the goofiest, most grandiose verbiage in the multiverse, and it frequently led to an impasse where no one could say anything for fear of being critical or judgemental to someone else's free expression. I've seen fanfic lists shut themselves down trying to be all things to all members--it always comes down to rigid censorship in the name of tolerance.

Looking at this whole post, it strikes me as a case of your having a battle of wits with--well, not precisely an unarmed opponent, it's more like trying to discuss comparative theology with a crusading evangelical. When somebody's dead set on a course and only asking for opposing viewpoints in order to dismiss them, rational discussion is not possible. These are the same women who can come up with volumes of solipsistic silliness that justifies real-person sexfic wonderful and laudable, as long as the people who are being misrepresented never hear about it. I think this attitude is deplorable.

You find the comparison of fanfic and gay marriage infuriating; I find it silly. It isn't that I find sexual identity or civil rights unimportant--on the contrary, we had a long and difficult transition to move to Canada, where our relationship is described, with beautiful simplicity, as "marriage." That's real life. Fanfiction is not real life.

I expect OTW will attract a number of zealous souls who may well manage to assemble a good-sized chunk of fiction. It'll also probably spawn a certain amount of wank, and eventually much of it will fizzle out as people find other things to be fervent about. I hope some of them devote their energy to combating global warming. You can answer this if you want to, but please don't feel you must. The arguments are starting to look and sound like a merry-go-round.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It's an argument that I haven't actually thought about and you do have a point there — a very good point — regarding real vs. perceived threat.

As for genficcers not wanting to be in an archive that seems to favor slash...maybe. I know the I Need a Parrot Archive doesn't favor slash/het/gen and includes all. But then again, it's a limited archive that's one fandom/one character. Fanfiction Dot Net also seems to argue against it, although that archive disallows fanfic that's "NC-17" regardless of whether it's het/slash/gen, so I'm not sure it's a good comparison either. I think you're right that some genficcers and hetficcers might not want to be mixed in with slash, I'm not sure it's true on the whole.

That said, I agree with the rest of your points.

As for the circular argument...*wince* I think I need to shut off the computer now. The slow spiral downward is definitely making me sloppy.

[originalpuck.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that some genficcers and hetficcers might not want to be mixed in with slash, I'm not sure it's true on the whole.

I haven't heard of this sort of attitude before. May I ask why they wouldn't want to be housed with slash? Aren't they all fan fiction?

I don't mean to come off as sarcastic, since I don't mean to offend. I'm just earnestly curious about the reasoning behind the perceived need to seperate them.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It doesn't make any sense to me either, but there are some het/gen ficcers that don't want to be archived with slash, just as there are slash writers who do not want to be archived with het/gen ficcers. And, yeah, I have first-hand experience with both in Buffy fandom.

Most people don't think that way, but there's always a subgroup that does. Thankfully,the Internet is a big enough place that they can go to their own corners and not bother anyone else. Usually.