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You did not just go there...
I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.
Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)
[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]
I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.
I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.
Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.
Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.
Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.
But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.
However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.
That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.
In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.
As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.
Let me explain something:
I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."
Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.
However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!
You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.
Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.
And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).
Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.
Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.
Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (
[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]
I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.
I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.
Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.
Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.
Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.
But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.
However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.
That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.
In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.
As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.
Let me explain something:
- No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
- No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
- No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
- No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
- No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
- No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
- No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."
Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.
However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!
You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.
Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.
And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).
Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.
Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.
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I've tried making disclaimers about how I don't mean things as strongly as I know they're going to come across... I've found that they don't help, and usually just muddy the issues.
(And Liz--if you don't like this going on in your journal, just say so; I'll drop it. I didn't mean to throw my weird quasi-political fanwank into your journal.)
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And you're right that a disclaimer wouldn't have helped. I just think that in this case, if you knew this analogy was inappropriate, you should have delayed posting until you came up with one that was less offensive and ridiculous.
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If you weren't trying to persuade people to support the OTW, then why did you say in your comment above
Furthermore, your OP does not at all suggest that it wasn't a persuasive argument, nor do I see any indication that it was supposed to be anything but a persuasive argument for the OTW.
So either you haven't been very clear about your intentions, or you just backed off on the purpose.
I'll take your word for it that you're seeking feedback.
But let me state and echo what others have said clearly: It's a damn poor comparison, it detracts from your point, and will convince exactly no one that OTW is worth a damn.
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First off, the argument itself detracts from whatever point
Secondly, having
Thirdly, you're absolutely right that it's not at all a persuasive argument for people who are even a little bit inclined to support the OTW, but have their doubts. It's a clear-cut case of preaching to the choir.
So, yeah, all in all: as a persuasive argument — hell, as a coherent argument — it fails.
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I'm not sure how my post (or my comment in
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Furthermore, in your own words you knew this was an "outrageous exaggeration." And using a known exaggeration in a public post...wait. How is this not a deliberate exaggeration again? Because even breaking out the dictionary, it looks the same to me.
It also doesn't take away from
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Because I'd rather exaggerate (and get flamed), and spend six months contemplating how that went wrong, and eventually (maybe) come up with the "right" analogy, than not make the post, and have it get lost in the collection of thousands of ideas-I-did-not-post. I posted it so I wouldn't lose it.
I admit, I could've posted it privately. Or f'locked it. (Which would've felt dishonest, somehow, but that's a different bit of meta.)
But I am devoted to the art of flamewar as a communication technique--of overstating the case to find what the real core issues are. Of finding out how an argument flies with random strangers, not just with friends who have enough history and background to read motivations into it that aren't apparent in the post itself.
FWIW, what I've gotten out of this so far:
1) The analogy is too extreme.
2) No, really, the analogy is way too extreme to be useful. Change it.
3) Some people find some use in it anyway.
4) They are crazy. It is too extreme.
5) Some people, while finding it too extreme, acknowledge some of the points.
6) People will be judging the OTW based on my actions if I mention them. Possibly even if I don't mention them, since I've been pretty active in OTW discussions.
7) Many people are offended at the idea of comparing artistic drives to sexual identity--or at least, they are offended when "artistic drive" is phrased as "desire to fanfic."
And probably some other bits that haven't sorted themselves into list-able points yet.
Haven't decided what to make of all that, really. But I am paying attention.
What do you think would've happened if I f'locked the post? Only my friends would've commented... and they certainly didn't say "dayam, girl, you have stepped way the fuck over the line with this one; get yerself a big dose of STFU and never say anything this stupid again." A couple of them told me it was "a stretch"--but neither of those are fanficcers, and one is fairly anti-fanfic.
I post publicly because I want feedback, even if that feedback is flames.
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Here's what I'm getting from you:
That you were deliberately disingenuous from beginning to end. You knew you made a bad-faith argument from the start. You've been defending that bad-faith argument to the point where people are getting insulted and offended by your arguments.
And...you don't actually believe any of it? Am I reading that correct?
What's more, you made that bad-faith argument because you couldn't be arsed to use that creativity you've been touting in other conversational threads to actually come up with a good-faith argument?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Furthermore, disagreement =/= flamewar. Everyone here has been reasonably polite to you, even if they think your argument is batshit insane. It hasn't even come close to flaming. No one commenting here would flame you because they know my one rule:
"You can argue, debate, even get heated. But flaming will result in freezing the thread and a warning from moi."
As a result, I have not put the kibosh on anything you've posted here, even if I really, really think you are way off in left field. No one has called you names, or erupted into nastiness over some of your more creative arguments.
You have not been flamed. This is not flaming. Flaming is not when someone (or a whole fuckload of someones) disagrees with you. And flaming is not conducive to communication. It is, in fact, conducive to pissing people the hell off, which pretty much cuts off communication of any kind.
And you are not discovering any core issues of anything. Do you even realize that? Everyone is pretty much focused on the fact that your analogy sucks if you're making an argument in favor of fanfiction or the OTW or whateverthehell you're actually arguing for.
What really blows my mind is that almost every single person who has responded to this post writes fanfiction and is heavily involved in fandom. This is actually the fucking choir. If anyone's going to agree with you, it's the people responding right here. And we think your argument is insane.
What is there to suss out here?
Furthermore, read up and down all of the responses to this thread. If your goal is to get people thinking about the OTW in positive terms, you've failed. Spectacularly. Your arguments and your defense thereof has pretty much focused on your bad-faith analogy. Of all the people discussing this, exactly three people have even discussed the OTW in-depth. That number includes you and me, by the way. And the third person hasn't been convinced by your arguments either and isn't sure the OTW is a good idea.
So, yeah. Good job there. Way to achieve your goal.
Jesus, did you do even the littest bit of debating in high school? You're using sucky tactics. If you want to convince anyone of anything (and I can't stress this enough), taking a fucking step back from the computer and think about your argument before you post something that you know is a bad-faith argument.
Look, I don't have a problem with people discussing whatever on my journal. It is a communication medium and I'm a big believer in the two-way conversation (or three-way, or four-way, or whatever-way).
But at least make a good faith argument if you're arguing something you believe. Stop defending something you know is a bad argument.
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(I do agree that this is not flaming. I disagree that flaming is not conducive to communication. I agree that it doesn't do anything for the particular topic of discussion at the time of flamewar, however.)
I believe it very solidly; that's why I'm continuing to argue. It seems perfectly sensible to me:
Fanfic: an inspiration to express one's creativity in a particular way, in connection to a particular book/movie/whatever, which a lot of people believe is illegal or immoral or both.
Same-sex marriage: an inspiration to express one's love & devotion in a particular way, in connection to a particular other person, which is not legal in a lot of places, and a lot of people think is immoral.
Telling someone "if you want [your writing] to be legal and publicly accepted, choose something else to [write, not fanfic]" strikes me as the same kind of statement (although very much on a different scale) as saying "if you want [your marriage] to be legal and publicly accepted, choose someone else to [wed, not someone of your own sex.]"
I am very clear that people believe this is an inaccurate parallel.
I'm not sure if this is because
1) Same-sex marriage is too big and complex to compare like this; it comes with a ton of other baggage (like, "people get killed for it") that I'm not addressing, while writing does not come with any comparable baggage;
2) Personal creativity, unlike marriage, is not a civil or moral right, and comparing them is therefore useless;
3) The current political climate requires a great deal of sensitivity when discussing same-sex marriage, and by comparing it to something relatively trivial, I am potentially harming the goal of getting it fully legalized; or
4) Something else, that is alien enough to my (admittedly whacked) way of thinking that I'm missing it entirely.
If anyone's going to agree with you, it's the people responding right here. And we think your argument is insane.
Got that, yeah.
What is there to suss out here?
*Why* it is insane. And I'm very grateful to you for letting me thrash around on your journal while I try to sort that out.
If your goal is to get people thinking about the OTW in positive terms
It is not. Oh, I'd like it if they did, but it's not my goal here. Nor, directly, much of anywhere else.
If OTW can't handle the suspicions and distrust that will be pointed at it for having the occasional whackjob fanatic supporter, then my faith in its abilities is greatly misplaced.
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The big plus of the internet is instant communication. The big minus... is instant communication.
If you really wanted feedback? You could say, "I'm thinking of making the comparison between gay marriage and OTW. Any thoughts?"
Frankly, even if OTW were to come off, that's one big tent I will steer clear of. You aren't going to be able to manage a group of enormously disparate and vocal individuals if you can't manage to express your own ideas in a clear and cogent manner. You will get attention - and from your posts on this thread, that seems to be your primary purpose.
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Fanfiction is a copyright violation. When a copyright holder wants to quash fanworks, they are asserting their rights within the law. They own it. It belongs to them. They have a right to dispense or not dispense with the rights as they choose. And they have a right to step on your ass if you do something they don't like with their property.
Denying someone the right to marry based on who they love is a fucking violation of their civil rights! It is denying them equal access to protection under the law based on who they are, not what they fucking do.
I cannot imagine how many times people can say this to you because this is what we've been saying all along. And. You. Are. Still. Not. Getting. It.
Please explain to me why you're having such a hard time grasping this concept. It's a simple concept, really. It's not that hard to grasp. Really, it's not.
As people have pointed out to you over and over and over and over again: denial of civil rights, denial equal protection under the law, persecution, and all that similar "good stuff" that a U.S. citizen has a right to be free from almost never happens just because someone writes fanfiction. And I say "almost" because I can't prove it never happens. But I'd be shocked if it does.
However, people get fucking killed because they happen to be GLBT and then the perps put forward some bullshit excuse like the "gay panic" defense. Sometimes they even get away with it.
And your example of the "teachers that would get fired if it came out they wrote slash," doesn't work. It's the anti-gay bias that's an issue. Maybe even because of an anti-porn bias if it happens to be slash that includes porn. Not because they write fanfic. The vehicle does not matter. It's the goddamn subject matter that's the issue. If it was "just fanfic" at issue, most people would raise an eyebrow. Maybe make a few comments remarking that fanfic is a waste of time or that fanfic is a stupid hobby. But that's it.
So, let me sum up for you:
Reason number one why your argument sucks chainsaws: Yes, people get killed over what they write (another clear sign that you're not fucking paying attention because I said this). However, they do not get killed because they write fanfiction.
Reason number two why your argument sucks chainsaws: Missing the point and yet one more sign you're not fucking paying attention. No one said personal creativity is not a fundamental civil or moral right. We're saying that writing fanfiction is not a fundamental moral or civil right. Fanfiction is just one possibility. A small one. The vast majority of creative endeavors does not involve fandom at all. There are approximately a zillion ways to express your creativity should someone tomorrow tell you that all fanfiction is hereby illegal. So, nice strawman argument there, kemosabe.
Reason number three why your argument sucks chainsaws: Somehow I don't think comparing fanfiction to what is essentially a fight for civil rights is going to harm the forward march of same-sex marriage in the U.S. Pissing off people who are fighting for ensure GLBT citizens have equal rights? Yup. Pissing off actual GLBT poeple? Betchya ass. Actually affecting the fight for legalization of same sex marriage? Don't fucking flatter yourself.
Reason number four why your argument sucks chainsaws: BINGO! DINGDINGDINGDING! We have a winner! Clearly you have not read a fucking word anyone has said. Either that, or you have reading comprehension issues.
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Telling someone "if you want [your writing] to be legal and publicly accepted, choose something else to [write, not fanfic]" strikes me as the same kind of statement (although very much on a different scale) as saying "if you want [your marriage] to be legal and publicly accepted, choose someone else to [wed, not someone of your own sex.]"
Sorry,
I wasn't able to read your (
I.E. Both statements can be boiled down to: "This isn't allowed. You should do X thing that isn't what you actually want to do instead. Then everyone will be happy, and when I say everyone, I mean, 'everyone but you.'"
However, even though i think of my fannishness as just as integral to my being as my sexuality, a great many people don't. It's like the debate awhile ago when someone compared pop singers "playing gay" onstage to blackface: even though there were some similarities (pretending, during a performance, to be part of a minority group that you're not actually part of), the entire question of whether or not "playing gay" was a form of appropriation was disregarded because everyone was so angry over the comparison with something as blatantly offensive as blackface. Likewise here: many, many people are so angry/horrified/dumbfounded at the implied trivializing of LGTB rights inherent in comparing gay marriage to a hobby that they can't look beyond the "fanfic=gay marriage? WTF!" brainbreak to try and figure out what you're actually arguing. They just stop dead on fanfic=gay marriage, and think "No it doesn't. No one's been lynched/kicked out of the military/assaulted for writing fic." And then they get angry at you. Or dismiss your argument totally.
Which argument is that some of the tactics used to dismiss the two are similar? I think? Like the anti-fanfic bingo card's similarity to the racism bingo card, even though I'm sure no one involved actually thinks opposition to fanfic=racism.
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YES!!! That's it exactly.
I was trying to sort out if there were other similarities. Or rather, if the several similarities had anything connecting them besides rhetoric patterns, if there was a similarity in understanding of them that causes similar reactions.
I expected some backlash by phrasing it baldly instead of spending a lot of tl;dr giving background and making disclaimers. But I didn't know what shape the backlash would be in, nor which part(s) would be considered offensive.
I'd say using the f-word multiple times when replying to someone in a deliberately insulting way could, for the purposes of debate, be considered a flame.
So could, presumably, telling someone that their existence is an "offense against the the world." But since that happened at about the same time it got sent to fandom_wank, I still agree with Liz's statement that this has not been a flamewar.
many, many people are so angry/horrified/dumbfounded at the implied trivializing of LGTB rights
I saw that. That's why I removed the posts from public view. (You missed nothing, by the way, except for a few people agreeing that it was a good analogy, and a couple saying it was a bit stretched. Apparently, nobody's willing to say STFU WHAT ARE YOU THINKING in my journal.)
That... I'm not sure what to do about. On the one hand, I don't want to disregard or trivialize the LGTB rights struggles. On the other, I don't want to ignore their connections to other issues--like feminism, or the puritanical ethic that tries to squash all forms of sexuality that aren't "within marriage, missionary position, for the purpose of producing a child." Or the forms of self-expression that are met with open hostility and discrimination, in the same way that some will say "well, gays are okay, but do they have to allow those freaky drag queens? Can't they just be quiet?"
And right now, I'm not sure if it'd be more wanky to leave the posts hidden, or open them back up for comment.
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Seems about typical for those involved in OTW. It's all about ego with your lot, isn't it?
Well, you got attention. I know that a lot of people are appalled, others are laughing at you and you have succeeded in convincing more people that OTW is not to be trusted. Well done!
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Elfwreck is either trolling, the most self-involved person ever, or utterly insane.
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