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You did not just go there...
I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.
Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)
[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]
I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.
I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.
Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.
Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.
Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.
But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.
However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.
That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.
In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.
As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.
Let me explain something:
I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."
Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.
However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!
You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.
Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.
And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).
Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.
Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.
Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (
[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]
I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.
I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.
Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.
Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.
Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.
But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.
However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.
That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.
In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.
As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.
Let me explain something:
- No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
- No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
- No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
- No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
- No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
- No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
- No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."
Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.
However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!
You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.
Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.
And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).
Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.
Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.
no subject
The other problem I have with your argument, which was brought up by
See, this highlights one of my problems with the OTW right here: it seems to be making the argument fanfiction is almost exclusively about female space and m/m slash. The first point may be true as a generalization, but not in the details (almost half my Flist is made up of male fanfiction writers). The second point strikes me as completely narrow-minded.
While I don't have an issue with the "female space" argument for OTW (fuck it — men get male spaces every day and all the time; how d'you like the shoe on the other foot, pal?), I do have an issue with their definition of fanfiction, which seems to me to (more often than not) conflate pr0n with fanfiction, specifically m/m slash. And that's completely wrong as both a general rule of thumb and in the details.
Look, I like m/m slash. I read it. I'm a consumer of it. I've got both m/m slash and f/f slash writers on my Flist. I have no issues with that. But I don't write it.
Which is why this whole pr0n = fanfiction issue gets up my nose. It's also off-putting to het and, to a greater extent, gen writers. Now, I can understand if the OTW wants to be a slash-safe place. Fair enough. Where I have an issue is where an organization claiming to represent "my interests" makes an argument that I see as demonstratively false, i.e., the fanfiction = pr0n statement.
Which...gets off the rest of your point. Sorry for the digression.
The other issue is copyright holding. I've worked in publishing in one form or another my entire life. Copyright is important, especially if you're a small-time writer and/or publisher. It prevents a bigger fish from coming along and shitting all over your hard work.
Do I think some corporations are going overboard protecting copyright? Do I think copyright law needs to be looked at so it catches up with technology? Yes and yes. However, law has always lagged behind reality, and I suspect that the issue one way or the other will be resolved in some fashion long before the law catches up.
But how do we draw that new line? And can we say for sure that fanwords of any sort will fall on the safe side of the divide? And how do we make sure that will happen?
I'm not at all convinced the OTW is the right way to go, again, because a lot of hard questions have not been answered (and people have been asking).
Which is to say: I'm not anti-OTW. I'm just not sure I'm for it.
no subject
Thank you for bringing this up, because I felt there was another assumption I needed to question, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
My point was "who are squicked by it believe it should therefore be illegal" is better wording, but I still don't agree with it.
To me the "squick/illegal" argument connotes reactions to bondage or other alternate sexual acts. Writing fiction, however, is primarily (or only) about creative expression (even slash). Framing it in these terms almost implies fandom is a sexual orientation unto itself. This is reductio ad absurdum argument, but people will make it.
As a side note, I also question overly simplistic comparisons between print and musical copyright systems, because the law and the art do not function exactly the same.
Also: don't some authors, publishing houses, movie studios draw a sharp line between fan and solicited work for legal self-protection. One unmentioned scenario is what might happen if a fan decides the author or program is using ideas without permission or compensation. Even one fan lawsuit against a creator could do massive damage to all the tacit assumptions which maintain the relationship.
Edited to add: I do think acknowledging the "feminine space" of fan fic is a good thing as you said, and it's also historically accurate. I first read of the fan fiction phenomenon in the 80s through a paper examining women writing Kirk/Spock slash.
no subject
I agree that "I don't like it/Think it's stupid/Think it's wrong, therefor it should be illegal" is really a dumb argument to make overall. There are a lot of things I'm not terribly fond of and wouldn't be sorry if they disappeared overnight, but I'm not about to go campaigning to make them illegal just because I don't like it and someone else does.
And I agree, the copyright in music vs. copyright in print are two different very different issues. I think my argument on that front is we don't want to see copyright holders of original media going after fanworks in the same questionably legal way that the RIAA is going after filesharers. I worded that argument poorly.
But, yeah, I can definitely state that there are sharp legal lines drawn between copyright holders and fanworks. Often times, I've seen copyright holders actually tell fans to back off. JMS of Babylon 5 fame specifically forbade discussion of fanfic on the rec.arts.babylon-5 Usenet group to avoid problems. Terry Pratchett interacts with fans online, and he's put a "no speculation about future plots" rule where he hangs out online for just that reason.
In a strange way, it's sort of been fandom's protection. By not officially recognizing fanworks, the copyright holders are protecting themselves. When creators state they're okay with it, it's always with that "wink-wink-I-don't-read-it" approach, even though you know based on some stray comments that they've at least seen it and may even be familiar with it.
And by the way, there already has been a fan lawsuit against a creator, but it was one of those odd cases. The lawsuit was against Marion Zimmer Bradley, which lead to Bradley forbidding fanfiction. However, I recall there was an oddity here. Bradley used to allow fanfiction and even offered to publish some in an anthology. However, what she failed to do was tell people who were published that she'd feel free to use their ideas for her own Darkover series without attribution or payment. When it actually happened, the fan in question filed suit. It devolved into a "I was going in that direction anyway/You stole my idea" argument.
I can't seem to find the whole discussion on JournalFen, but here's a brief overview via Fanwiki.
So, yeah. It's already happened, and has given authors a ready-made excuse to be anti-fanfiction.
no subject
Has nothing to do with gen vs porn.
Lee Goldberg and Robin Hobb and Anne Rice are squicked by fanfic in any format whatsoever, gen, het, slash, crossover or any other type.
Many writers are offended that someone else wants to play with their characters and/or in their world at all.