You did not just go there...

[liz_marcs]

I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.

Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)

[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]

I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.

I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.

Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.

Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.

Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.

But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.

However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.

That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.

In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.

As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.

Let me explain something:

• No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
  
  
• No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
  
  
• No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
  

I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."

Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.

However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!

You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.

Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.

And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).

Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.

Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.

Comments

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

The drive to write fanfic, like being gay, is an intrinsic part of personality and psyche, and not removable without bizarre brainwashing techniques which pretty much destroy the entire personal identity.

The drive to write maybe. I'm a queer writer. I cannot divorce myself from one thing or the other. As liz_marcs points out, writers have been persecuted for their writing. And as her original post explains, gay men and women have been persecuted for their sexuality.

Fan fiction writers - that's a whole other ballgame. I have little authority to speak on that matter. Very occasionally I am inspired by a television series to write a short story or a script. Actually, for years I wanted to get into TV and wrote a heap of spec scripts - which is really in no way different to writing fan fic, except for the intent. So I get the idea you can be inspired to write fan fic - but I kind of balk at the idea that this is as intrinsic to you as my sexuality is to me.

I'm queer because I am queer. I write because I am a writer.

Marriage and fan fic hold little interest for me - but I understand why people want them. But beyond that the comparison is terribly weak.

[elf]

So I get the idea you can be inspired to write fan fic - but I kind of balk at the idea that this is as intrinsic to you as my sexuality is to me.

A smaller part of the persona, but just as intrinsic. Couldn't remove it without destroying me-as-a-person.

I politely submit (as politely as you can imagine me being, at this point of the discussion) that you aren't able to judge what elements of my psyche are crucial to my identity.

The drive to write maybe.

Do you think the "drive to write" is intrinsic, but "the drive to write poetry" or "the drive to write essays" or "the drive to write plays" are separable from that, and the drive can be redirected to a different format if the main one isn't available or acceptable? (This is a serious question. I see the drive to write fanfic as no different from the drive to write songs... writing software documentation will not fulfill the drive.)

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Let's call it the "drive to create," then, shall we? This makes it clear that non-creative writing such as software documentation isn't what's referred to.

The creative urge isn't usually specific to only one kind of creativity. If you have that drive, you have it; you can and do choose what form you employ to express it. Anyone who's only driven to write fanfic is usually motivated by a need not to create but to find a way to insert him- or herself into the universe of the fandom in question. It's more like an externalized fantasy than a true "drive to create."

Anyone who is driven to create can and usually does find multiple outlets for that drive. To suggest that fanfic writing can be as intrinsic to one's identity and existence as one's sexuality is, at best, naive.

[elf]

non-creative writing such as software documentation

How much software documentation have you written?!? I picked that one because it's one I like... but doesn't scratch the itch to write songs. Nonfiction writing is still creative.

Anyone who is driven to create can and usually does find multiple outlets for that drive.

1) There are people who aren't driven to create? I thought it was a basic human drive, like sex. That anyone who doesn't have it is considered weird and broken by most people, and that evolution had pretty much removed people who don't have it from the gene pool, so the lack only shows up in the occasional mutation.

2) "Find multiple outlets" is not the same as "any of these outlets will do for any particular inspiration. A person usually lusts after several other people... but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to say "well, this one is closed to you--just switch to someone else."

The drive to write fanfic cannot be fulfilled by suppressing it and choreographing dances instead.

3) (Deep breath; this is where you write me off as a total wingnut and decide I'm not worth replying to anymore. Or that you'll continue to bicker with me, but have concluded that I'm an utter waste of bandwidth and any goal I support is at best, of dubious value, because if a crackpot like me can be in favor of it, it must have serious problems.)

Conflating sexuality with creativity is a central issue in my religion, and I'm content to discuss it for days.

I know what I want to write. I know who I want to fuck. And I know how closely those two drives are connected, how much my creativity and sexuality overlap.

Maybe for you, they're not, and they don't. That's not my concern. I don't get to define your sexuality... and you don't get to define mine.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

How much software documentation have you written?!? I picked that one because it's one I like... but doesn't scratch the itch to write songs. Nonfiction writing is still creative.

A fair amount, actually. In fact, I've done both business-related writing and nonfiction journalism professionally, so I think I have a really good grasp of how much software documentation fulfilled my need to create. Which is to say, it fucking didn't.

There are people who aren't driven to create? I thought it was a basic human drive, like sex. That anyone who doesn't have it is considered weird and broken by most people, and that evolution had pretty much removed people who don't have it from the gene pool, so the lack only shows up in the occasional mutation.

I am going to assume that this is another one of your hyperbole games and that you don't actually believe it. Yes, there are people for whom the drive to create seems to be missing or to be very weak. I know many. I am related to some.

"Find multiple outlets" is not the same as "any of these outlets will do for any particular inspiration. A person usually lusts after several other people... but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to say "well, this one is closed to you--just switch to someone else."

Um, well, you've already stated that for you, creativity and sexuality are the same thing, so there's no point in arguing this. For me, they aren't. The act of creating and the act of sex may each bring similar feelings, but whereas I am pretty much consistently attracted to men, I am equally fulfilled by various kinds of writing, by performing music or theater, or creating some kind of visual or physical art. I write a lot of fanfic, but I never feel like only that and that alone will satisfy me.

(Deep breath; this is where you write me off as a total wingnut and decide I'm not worth replying to anymore. Or that you'll continue to bicker with me, but have concluded that I'm an utter waste of bandwidth and any goal I support is at best, of dubious value, because if a crackpot like me can be in favor of it, it must have serious problems.)

No, apparently this is where you get to paint me as a closed-minded judgmental jerk. So, you know... thanks for that.

I get that for you, creativity and sexuality are somehow the same. I accept that you believe that. I think, however, that it's a mistake to proceed in the public sphere as though this is a universally accepted truth and make over the top arguments that rely on that principle, and then use the "well, in my religion, it's so" argument to deal with people who beg to differ.

I know what I want to write and who I want to fuck, too. And yeah, the drives are CONNECTED. To me, at least, they are not identical, and they definitely don't say, "Write fanfic and nothing else!"

I'm not the least bit interested in defining your sexuality. Sorry, I didn't think it was necessary to state that outright earlier.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Be aware, some of where elfwreck may be coming from is to stir up shit and start a flamewar in an effort to encourage communication.

Just be aware that some statements may be thrown out there just to get a reaction from you.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I knew that at the time. I was simply testy because of something else I was doing and because I was tiring of her gamesmanship. Shouldn't have let my testiness show, though.

You know, it strikes me that if she had framed her viewpoint a little differently, none of this would likely have happened. For example, explaining her apparently religious conflation of creativity and sexuality first, and then expanding her discussion to show how it related, at least in her mind, to the issue of gay marriage, would have made all the difference in how people perceived what she was saying. But that, I suspect, was never the goal.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

I politely submit (as politely as you can imagine me being, at this point of the discussion) that you aren't able to judge what elements of my psyche are crucial to my identity.

To be clear, I was using the collective "you" rather than the specific you. You're right, I have no idea what elements are crucial to elfwreck's psyche.

Do you think the "drive to write" is intrinsic, but "the drive to write poetry" or "the drive to write essays" or "the drive to write plays" are separable from that, and the drive can be redirected to a different format if the main one isn't available or acceptable?

Now that's an interesting argument. And for me it's all about the story I want to tell. If it feels like a short story I write that. If it feels like a poem, I write a poem. If it feels like a stage play, I write a play.

I understand that some writers have their preference of medium. And a preference for genre. And their own style.

I personally don't understand the pull to writing fan fic over original fic, but I support your right to write it. However, it doesn't compare to centuries of persecution of homosexuals nor the lengthy battle for same-sex marriage.