You did not just go there...

[liz_marcs]

I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.

Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)

[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]

I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.

I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.

Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.

Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.

Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.

But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.

However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.

That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.

In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.

As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.

Let me explain something:

• No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction
  
  
• No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic
  
  
• No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic
  
  
• No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)
  
  
• No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic
  

I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."

Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.

However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!

You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.

Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.

And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).

Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.

Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.

Comments

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

People *have* lost their jobs for writing slash. People *have* had it used against them in child custody cases. People *have* had their zines confiscated by customs agents.

AFAIK, all these people have been women.

Are pink and blood-red the same color? No, but they're in the same part of the spectrum.

Denying equal marriage rights is not the same thing as violent gay bashing, but they're in the same part of the spectrum, they're two different shades of the same thing. Fanfic in general and slash in particular are also -- or can be, and often have been -- light shades of the queer experience.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

But what you are describing are results of the overall anti-gay bias, not an anti-fanfic-in-general bias. I have no doubt that many people have suffered dire consequences from others finding out that they write slash, but that isn't because people think writing fanfic of any sort is vile. It's because of homophobic sentiments.

I just don't get the whole inability to recognize that the term "fanfic" is not synonymous with "porn" or "gay/lesbian fic."

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

OK, I see what you mean. In the cases I've heard of, copyright issues were certainly invoked, but IMHO as a stalking horse for homophobia (and a generalized "women shouldn't be interested in sex!" attitude). The trouble is, copyright issues have a history of being used as a stalking horse, especially in attacks on female & queer fans. So although logically there's no connection between fanfic (per se) and queerness, in practice & historically there *has* been a connection.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

You're also conflating "fandom," "fanfiction," and "anti-gay (or gender) bias."

These are not the same thing.

Number 1: Fandom is a huge universe and only a very, very tiny fraction of it even involves fanfiction. Furthmore, depending on which fandom type and the type of activity involved, the percentage of the sexes can be heavily reversed to the point where men have overwhelming numbers.

Number 2: In the tiny, tiny fraction that even involves fanfiction, please be aware that fanfiction DOES NOT equal slash or even porn. Someone on my FList actually did a survey of HP and I think Supernatural fandom and discovered that gen is the Queen and Winnah of all categories. Not het. Not slash. Gen. Is slash a large slice of the fanfiction pie? Sure! But not all fanfiction is slash — in fact, most fanfiction is not slash (the truth of this varies based on your personal FList and the fanfiction circles in which you travel). Furthermore, not all slash involves porn, either. I've read some slash stories where there was no sex at all, yet they're categorized as "slash" simply because two characters of the same sex are in a relationship.

Number 3: It still seems to me that you haven't shown that one is even close to the same continuum as the other. In your examples, and the fact you're focusing exclusively on slash or porn as being the equivalent of all fanfiction, it still strikes me that the content is at issue, and not fanfiction itself.

The fact is, the slash or porn content could cause problems regardless of whether it was original fiction, fanfiction, video, pictures, painting, etc., etc., etc.

This is what I'm trying to hammer home here: It's vanishingly rare for someone to be put in real jeopardy over fanfiction. It's the content that's at issue if the fanfiction is porn (het or slash) or involves same-sex relationships (slash of any stripe). The fanficiton is the "evidence" or the "excuse."

Unless you actually know of a gen writer or a PG-13 het writer who's gotten in dutch over fanfiction. If you have, please feel free to share.

Edited to add: Which is getting away from my point. The OP was still out of line making the comparison because writing fanfiction and being a fanfiction writer is nothing at all like same-sex marriage or being bi/gay.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

You're also conflating "fandom," "fanfiction," and "anti-gay (or gender) bias."

No, I'm saying that historically & in practice they have been conflated. And in some people's experience, being a fanfic writer *feels like* being gay, like being queer. It can feel like being closeted, it can feel like coming out. I'm not saying it's a logical connection, but for many people there *is* a psychological connection. It's parallel (I'm not sure that's the word I want) to the similarities of experience in Chris Glaser's Coming Out as Sacrament (http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Sacrament-Chris-Glaser/dp/0664257488/). Glaser argues that being truthful about oneself is seriously holy, especially when it's an uphill climb.

Unlike the OP, I don't mean to imply that it is always this way. But her comparison is not completely 100% off-the-wall, IMHO, and it does point to a commonality.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I actually have a friend whose open adoption was apparently (meaning, this is what the adoption people told her) spiked because she wrote vanilla het fanfiction about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Then they made her get a psychological evaluation.

That being said, these two things are still not like the other.

[measi.livejournal.com]

People *have* lost their jobs for writing slash. People *have* had it used against them in child custody cases. People *have* had their zines confiscated by customs agents.

Yes, but is this because of fanfiction and fandom, or is it because it's pornography related?

Dollars for doughnuts, the problems were related to pornographic content, not the fact that it's fanfiction specifically.

If I'm wrong, please cite individual cases.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

In the two lost job related cases that I know about one was completely fabricated and another was because of slash/porn and it probably would not have mattered if it was original material or fanfiction.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

That would be MsScribe and Aja, right?

If so, then those are the two cases I've heard about, and "fabrication" and "slash/porn" were the reasons. In the "slash/porn" instance, I seem to remember that the fact that it was fanfiction didn't even factor into it.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

Exactly. There may be other cases, but I can't imagine anyone being fired for writing fluffy G rated fanfiction unless that person is doing nothing else at work. In which case the reason for being fired is still not writing fanfiction.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

It depends on what you mean by "the problems". As I said, copyright issues have often been used as stalking horses and copyright holder used as cat's paws, where the grudge or "problem" was the porn but the excuse was the fanfic.

So for instance, I've talked to people about a variety of incidents in the 80s (one involving George Lucas, IIRC) where Fan A hated Fan B's porn, so Fan A wrote to the copyright holder, saying "Look there! Unauthorized use! And it's porn!" -- because the legal basis for attacking porn is slim, but copyright violation is legally clear-cut (by comparison).

So yes, the *problem* is porn, but the *excuse* is copyright.

Am I being clear?

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

No, copyright is not the excuse. Copyright is the reason.

George Lucas issuing a "cease-and-desist" order because he doesn't like what a fan is doing with his intellectual property is in any way, shape, or form is not exactly like denying someone their civil rights on the basis of gender, sexuality, religion (or lack therof), or sexuality.

You can keep saying the two are exactly the same, you can keep trying to stretch it to make a connection, but the fact is, the connection is not there no matter how hard you try.

Copyright law is a civil matter and it pertains (only) to property. People who create, pay for, and provide the media have the right to own it. They have a right to make a living off of it. Fanficcers are (as someone pointed out above) like skateboarders or graffiti artists. They're not doing anyone any harm, really. They're having some fun. Sometimes they can produce something artful out of the mess. Some are hobbiests. Whatever.

But still...fanficcers are using someone else's property, not matter how you slice it.

Now, lucky for us, most copyright holders look the other way when it comes to fannish activities, until some fan gets stupid and tries to earn a buck off the deal. Some copyright holders forbid it entirely (which is, again, their right). And even smaller population of copyright holders actively hate on fanfiction and will bunk on it continuously and will get litigious, but guess what, that's their right, too.

Now, GLBT civil rights, of which the same-sex marriage debate is just one facet? That comes down to who a person is and not what they do. That is a very different thing. GLBT people in many parts of the world at risk. They can be arrested. They can be beaten. They can be killed.

So I don't accept at all that there is any equivalence whatsoever between non-acceptance of fanfic and non-acceptance of GLBT.

Because, seriously, with all the people commenting on this thread, exactly four people (two commenters, Aja, and MsScribe) have come up as stating that they had RL revearsals over fanfic. The MsScribe story turned out to be a complete lie. The Aja story was a porn-at-work issue. And the two commenters ran into homophobic reactions in which the fanfic was just one piece of physical evidence used against them.

So, really, you point has not been proved at all.