liz_marcs: Liberty and Justice in a lesbian kiss (liberty_justice_otp)
liz_marcs ([personal profile] liz_marcs) wrote2008-01-20 12:27 pm

You did not just go there...

I should just not read metafandom on LJ and meta_roundup on IJ some days.

Because when I see posts like this where fanfiction is compared to "gay marriage," I want to break things. (The correct term is equality marriage, BTW. Edit: I've been told that "gay marriage" and "same-sex marriage" are as acceptable as "equality marriage." Just throwing that out there so it doesn't detract from my point.)

[NOTE: DO NOT go over and flame the OP or cause her problems. I'm providing the link so you can read the post and for no other reason.]

I first heard/seen it on LJ a few days ago. Then I saw it linked to on JF. It's now been linked to meta_roundup on IJ.

I've seen this same comparison three times in something like three days.

Each time I read it, I get a bit angrier.

Look, I understand that the Organization for Transformative Works (hereafter referred to as the OTW) is a big deal to some people. I've read the various arguments in support of it, and I'm still not horribly impressed. I see a lot of biiiiiiig words arguing why I should think the OTW (whatever it's supposed to be) is the greatest thing evah, but what I don't see is a lot of operational details that a wonk like me sees as remotely feasible.

Personally, when it comes to the OTW, I say the jury is waaaaay out on that one. Because all those words I'm reading really don't tell me a damn thing of what it's actually supposed to be and what it's supposed to accomplish. I feel a bit like someone who's listening to 5 blind men describe an elephant without knowing that they're describing an elephant. No one seems to actually agree on what "it" is supposed to be.

But far be it from me to harsh anyone's Big Idea That Will Change the World. Knock yourself out, sez I. Who knows? Maybe I'm too naturally suspicious of the Big Idea That Will Change the World. Maybe the supporters of OTW are right. Maybe it will actually turn out to be something pretty special. I could be wrong, and I'm willing to be wrong.

However, based on what I'm reading/seeing so far...let's just say I have my doubts about OTW and leave it at that.

That said, posts like "fanfiction is like gay marriage" is not going to win me over.

In fact, it really pisses me the hell off.

As someone who lives in the only state in the U.S. that actually recognizes equality marriage as a matter of law and who lived the 4 bruising years between 2003 and 2007 where the fight raged non-stop over any and all attempts to amend our state constitution to make our gay and lesbian friends, family members, and neighbors into second class citizens to the point where it overrode all other state issues I'm pretty fucking sure that fanfiction is not like "gay marriage" at all.

Let me explain something:

  • No one has ever been beaten into the hospital or the morgue because they wrote fanfiction

  • No one has ever found themselves put out on the street because their fanfic writing partner died and their writing partner's family didn't want that dirty little co-writer around

  • No one has ever been prevented from attending their fanfic writing partner's funeral by members of their fanfic writing partner's family who were fanficphobic

  • No one has ever been prevented from seeing their fanfic writing partner in the hospital because they wrote fanfic

  • No one has ever been treated as a second class citizen by society at large because they wrote fanfic

  • No one is arguing about making amending the U.S. Constitution to make fanfic illegal, thereby relegating you to permanent second-class citizenship because of your hobby (as opposed to, y'know, your very existence)

  • No one has ever had their civil rights violated because they wrote fanfic


I'm sure that list could be a lot longer, but that's just for a start on how writing fanfic is not at all like "gay marriage."

Listen, I'm not saying that fanfic writers haven't found themselves in shit RL situations like the ones I've listed above. I'm also not arguing that all fanfic writers are gay, lesbian, or bi any more than I'd argue the reverse.

However, 99% of the time verging on 100% of the time, when RL (as in: not on the Internet) sexism or racism or sexuality bias rears its ugly head and slaps an individual across the face, it's not because they write fanfiction. They may happen to write fanfiction, but it's not because they write fanfiction, damn it!

You see the difference, right? Because I see a pretty big difference between the two.

Listen, I understand that the very idea of the OTW inspires fanatical devotion among some in fandom to the point where they can be pretty annoying about it, but posts like this are not helping your cause.

And this isn't the first time I've seen/read posts in favor of the OTW that lacked any sort of perspective at all. I mean, for the record, writing fanfiction is not at all like being in an interracial marriage. And questioning the purpose of the OTW is not at all like being homophobic or racist (examples of arguments I've actually read).

Posts like this piss people off. It sure as hell pisses me off. And when you piss people off, you turn them off. Maybe permanently.

Hyperbole is no one's friend. Please keep that in mind for the future. Thanx.

[identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com 2008-01-22 09:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said! Passionate though I am about fanfic in general, I am getting very angry with people who compare responses to fanfic in the big bad world to real oppression.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:36 am (UTC)(link)
*nods*

Because, apparently, being embarrassed about your hobby is exactly the same as ZOMG! oppreshun.

I'm not saying that someone's PWP (slash and het) or fanfiction about a same-sex couple hasn't been used against them, except that the issue is an anti-porn or homophobic reaction, not the fanfiction itself. They fanficcers would've gotten the same reaction if it was an original work in any media.

That and I know that no one gets their panties in a twist over a G-rated crossover titled "The Care Bears vs. the Men in Black," unless you're writing it on company equipment while being paid on company time and your boss catches you.

I don't know how many times I can say this: The subject matter may become an issue (as unfair as that may be), the medium by which the subject is expressed is utterly immaterial.

Even so, that still doesn't make the comparison right.

Aaaaand, sorry for ranting. I've got a few people commenting who've decided that the comparison is apt.

I'll be shutting off the computer now before I start fapping again....

[identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
I can only assume they have never experienced any real oppression or prejudice.

[identity profile] blade-girl.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:47 am (UTC)(link)
Either that, or they may have, but as a result have adopted the attitude of assuming any opposition to anything they are involved in is also part of that oppression. Which of course only cheapens the real injustices they've endured.

[identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:50 am (UTC)(link)
Very true, like people who get used to racism and start thinking everything is part of some racist conspiracy.

[identity profile] blade-girl.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
Precisely!

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:59 am (UTC)(link)
Y'know, I think that is a very good point.

Also, there's one commenter (maybe two) who seem to has the same "my sexuality is tied up with my fanfiction" thing going on as well. I'm sort of wondering if it's a case that fanfiction is so tied up with their identities that they honestly believe that the RL problems they've had to put up with is also tied in with their fanfiction activities.

I...can't quite wrap my head around that way of thinking (to put it politely), but it's almost like they can't separate the fannish personna from their sexual personna or their religious personna or their personna as women. It's all in one big...tangled mess? Bucket? I'm not sure.

But it seems to me you've got people arguing that writing can (and is in my case) a part of your personna, but fanfiction is just one facet of what you can do with it (as you and I both know). What they're argument, I think, is that where we put writer, they're putting fanficcer.

Which...I still don't get as a life philosophy, but I think I've finally cracked the code on what they're saying.

That said, they seem utterly unwilling to understand why the comparison between fanfiction and same-sex marriage can be construed as offensive and trivializing by a lot or people. They don't see why this kind of argument doesn't help them at all. And it seems that no amount of telling them why this is not an appropriate comparison makes them even want to step back and look at things from another point of view.

It doesn't help that [livejournal.com profile] elfwreck appears to have set out specifically to cause a negative reaction and keeps feeding the flames, BTW. That isn't helping with the muddying of the waters.

[identity profile] blade-girl.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
But it seems to me you've got people arguing that writing can (and is in my case) a part of your personna, but fanfiction is just one facet of what you can do with it (as you and I both know). What they're argument, I think, is that where we put writer, they're putting fanficcer.

Yes, yes, exactly! And I can't wrap my mind around that, either. Writing is a huge part of my life and of who I am, but fanfic is just one of the many outlets I have for it. Now, if someone else has chosen to express this part of herself exclusively with fanfic, that's fine, but I think it takes a strange perspective to see it as some sort of calling.

It doesn't help that [livejournal.com profile] elfwreck appears to have set out specifically to cause a negative reaction and keeps feeding the flames, BTW. That isn't helping with the muddying of the waters.

Nope.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:47 am (UTC)(link)
*nods*

And can I just say that your user name and your icon is, like, THE COOLEST EVER!

Remington Steele. Dayum. I so need to get those DVDs from Netflix.

*zooms off to put them in my Netflix que*

I luvs me some Laura Holt.

[identity profile] laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
I have a community for Steele fanfic, vids, art etc at http://community.livejournal.com/steelewriting/ You'd be very welcome there.

:D

Do get the DVDs!

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 03:01 am (UTC)(link)
*squeeeeeee* There's Remington Steele fanfic!

I will definitely be stopping by for a visit! I write gen Buffy fanfiction, and I don't usually write outside of Buffy fandom (it's very rare).

But I'm an omniverous reader. :-)

As soon as my journal stops *wince* becoming ground zero in the latest wank I'll be a-poking my nose in for sure.

*here from metafandom*

[identity profile] spoggly.livejournal.com 2008-01-22 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

I read that post a while ago and just boggled at the screen for some time. Now I have your awesomely articulated post to soothe my indignation.

Re: *here from metafandom*

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
If I had seen it linked to only once, I would have merely boggled.

It was seeing it linked to a third time that kind of set me over the edge.

[identity profile] carmarthen.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 04:02 am (UTC)(link)
I am more hopeful about OTW than you, I think (and probably more positive about most of the people involved--[livejournal.com profile] astolat certainly has a good project track record and I really respect her, and it was her idea to start with).

But there have definitely been some bad arguments on both sides, and this one is pretty insane (and FWIW, although I think [livejournal.com profile] elfwreck often has interesting things to say, I definitely don't like or support this particular debate tactic).

[identity profile] phoenix64.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you for yelling in a space where a lot of people will hear. People making this argument? At the very least they owe Matthew Shepard's mother a written apology. On real paper.

[identity profile] neverneverfic.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 04:51 am (UTC)(link)
sing it sister!

FWIW

[identity profile] kita0610.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 08:34 am (UTC)(link)
I do support OTW and I hate that it gets conflated with batshittery like this.

That said, thank you for this post. Because, no. Just. No.

Here via metafandom

[identity profile] oh--tsarevich.livejournal.com 2008-01-23 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh. Oh, I love you.

This is exactly what bothers me about so many meta posts, the constant hyperbole of oppression. I genuinely care about fandom and fanfic, but how can people even say these things? Does it suck that fanfic isn't taken seriously? Of course it does. But fandom is not being ruthlessly, actively oppressed by all of society and legislation for even existing as a group.

Saying things like "writing fanfic is just like being gay/black/a slave/in the Holocaust!" (and so many people do, so often!) to me doesn't only indicate a serious lack of perspective, but also thoughtless disrespect towards the people who have actually undergone those things everyone throws in so easily as hyperbolic comparison.

So, er, thank you for this post. I love you a lot.
(deleted comment)

Re: Here from metafandom

(Anonymous) 2008-01-31 06:43 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a pet peeve. Compare is not the same as equate.

You can write a paper comparing circles to triangles. They have many similar properties yet they are also very different.

You can write a paper comparing the firebombing of Tokyo to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Again, they have similarities but they are in some ways different.

If you wrote one of the above papers you would be trying to find insight by exploring the similarities and differences of the two different things, i.e. by comparing them. Similarly you *can* compare the fight to destroy copyrights to the fight for gay marriage. Whether the comparison yields any useful insight is another mater.
ext_2060: (Default)

Re: Here from metafandom

[identity profile] geekturnedvamp.livejournal.com 2008-02-02 05:07 am (UTC)(link)
Seriously, don't waste your time.

Page 2 of 2