OH JOHN RINGO NO!

[liz_marcs]

With all the business about this kind of skeevy crap (not to mention the fact there's a massive case of failboat here), is it wrong that I'm perversely pleased that OH JOHN RINGO NO has become a catchphrase (hradzka must be proud!)?

No, seriously. It's not everyday one is present at the birth of an Internet meme and has the commenting record to prove it.

What? Don't look at me like that.

Anyway, Unfunny Business on Journalfen is going a bit of a round-up on the business.

As for me, I only have one question:

Why is it that whenever someone (usually male) decides that it's time to get "sex positive," it's invariably the women who need to "get over their issues" so they can participate? Also, why is it that they're the ones who usually end up at the receiving end of whatever insane little "sex positive" experiment is being done?

Strange how that works, hunh?

Look, if a woman says the idea of such a "sex positive" experiment (read: giving men a free pass on treating female-type people like meat) is skeevy, it does not mean she's "got sexual issues," or "lacks a sense of humor," or is "anti-feminism."

What it means is that she reserves the right to do one or all of the following if you pull that shit on her:

1) Mace your ass

2) Rip your nuts off

3) Call the cops and press sexual assault charges

It also means that she (and I imagine quite a lot of men) don't like it when complete strangers grope any part of their anatomy, erogenous zone or not.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with some people that they don't get that?

That said, seeing OH JOHN RINGO NO plastered all over this tempest has had me giggling like a loon all day (much love to the_red_shoes for using it first in reference to this).

Comments

[minim_calibre]

I think we all need OH JOHN RINGO NO icons.

(I was laughing too hard at hradzka's post to have any street cred proof, but OH JOHN RINGO NO made my day today during the discussions.)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Seriously man. It's beautiful to behold, especially in this context.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

I feel dirty just having read the OH JOHN RINGO NO entry. That's some loathsome shit right there.

[butterflykiki.livejournal.com]

Dittoing Honor, I couldn't get through it. Far too upsetting. I don't believe in burning books, but this crap... Jeeeeez. OH JOHN RINGO NO. I just want to hurt him. A lot.

Why is it that whenever someone (usually male) decides that it's time to get "sex positive," it's invariably the women who need to "get over their issues" so they can participate? Also, why is it that they're the ones who usually end up at the receiving end of whatever insane little "sex positive" experiment is being done?

You have no idea how hostile this whole thing makes me feel. Hostile, hostile, hostile. Would theferrett be this okay if he was being cruised by guys who were, proportionally, as much larger than him as the average guy is larger than the average girl? I think not. And if everyone was telling him he wasn't 'positive' enough about his sexuality and self-confidence for not participating? Grrr.

*hostiles hostilely*

[zoethe.livejournal.com]

I wish people could understand that the whole point was not to pressure anyone into doing anything. On the contrary, we applauded just as much for the women who said no.

Ferrett wrote it up badly, yes. But the assumption that it must have been terrible for women is insulting when so many of us have expressed that it was exactly the opposite.

[kurukami.livejournal.com]

Gyaaaaah. I don't glance at LJ for a day and teh interwebz go all 'splodey. You know, I clearly must have far too busy a work day. I always only find out about these things AFTER they've blown up and over.

*considers* ... of course, that may well be a GOOD thing.

[animefiend-176.livejournal.com]

Don't feel bad, I'm only finding out NOW. From following a link in comments on copperbadge's journal, of all things.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

The Open Source Swift Kick to the Balls project is a good response. :D

[kokuten.livejournal.com]

my off-the-cuff response was 'what the hell? no it isn't!'

Initial analysis reveals that the mere _existence_ of this project makes me feel uncomfortable and threatened. (I am a male - I possess the appropriately-named 'balls')

Cogitation upon this reveals the humor inherent in that feeling, and shame that women are made to feel that way.

Followup analysis and comparison of the stated goals of both projects reveal serious inconsistencies.

1) The OSBP was opt-in
2) The OSKTTBP is opt-out

Further followup analysis suggests that the opt-out vs. opt-in discrepancy is intended to note the peer pressure and intimidation factors assumed to have been experienced by the women involved in the OSBP.

Intuition suggests I'm rambling, I'm shaking because I need to eat something, and I should either post comment or stop typing.

And my schedule reminds me that I have chores to do, so I'm gonna hit the button now.

[drmercurious.livejournal.com]

I just came back from reading the posted link about this so-called experiment.

...

I think all us right-thinking men out here should form the Castrata Experiment. We should all go around, find people who actually THINK that the former experiment is harmless and chop their dicks off, thereby eliminating them from the gene pool. Who wants to join, anyone?

Yes, I'm pissed. There are some decent guys out there, more than are given credit for, and then some slimy so-and-so pulls something like THIS.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I still can't believe that people think there's something wrong with women for not wanting a bunch of assholes to grope them.

[jjhunter]

I thought that userroniliquidity in particular did a good job clarifying my thoughts on the issue when responding to usertablesaw: there's a lot of value in speaking up and confronting these issues publicly in an articulate way. In fact, having to articulate why one doesn't agree can deepen one's understanding and commitment to one's principles.

I learned a great deal from the really good comments on that post. That being said, there were some 'OH JOHN RINGO NO' moments in the comment threads too.

[kokuten.livejournal.com]

First time commenter - I think. I may have commented during Strikeout, and I know it's why I'm following your journal, Liz.


I don't get it.

I don't understand why this is a Bad Thing.

My current hypothesis is that I'm coming into this way too late, and not seeing some chronological development on the part of the actual theferret output, that ties this together in a more rage-inducing way.



What I'm trying to say here, is that I would like you to attempt to say something that would explain the badness here to the ignorant, because I'm certainly a member of that category.

[drmercurious.livejournal.com]

I'll take a stab. From my interpretation of the article, any woman who was at all recalcitrant about 'going with the flow' was depicted and 'repressed'. This was an experiment in Peer Pressure. Besides, why just women? Come ON here -- let's have buttons for men's ASSES to be squeezed. ((I might sign up for that one ;) )) Hey, it's the same rationale -- men are uptight about being on the submissive side of the equation, so let's get them to soften up a touch. And get serious -- in a mob-mentality situation like this, how many women without buttons -- or who had the 'No' buttons -- were pressured? I KNOW convention people, been going to them forever and the answer is A LOT.

Interestingly enough, not many have anything good to say about furry conventions but that shit would NOT be allowed to fly at ANY fur con I have been at. In fact, there is a very strict 'no fondling in public' policy -- even between two willing participants.

[gianna24.livejournal.com]

That guy is a nerdy creep who apparently can't get any touch the normal way and so has to create a creepy, creepy "project" to excuse his dysfunction. BARF.

[zoethe.livejournal.com]

Fuck you and your assumptions. If you bothered to do anything besides smugly assume that you know everything, you would know that I am his wife, that he has a ton of friends, and that women were the ones who turned his comment into a project.

[nocturnalista.livejournal.com]

Shudder...

I'm bleaching my brain right now.

I pity those women who felt empowered by being grabbed by strangers. If this was about empowerment, where's the Open Source Don't Obsess on Boobs Project? Or the Open Source Treat People Like Equals Despite the Difference in Their Body Parts Project?

However, I'm all over the Open Source Knuckle Sandwich Project.

[zoethe.livejournal.com]

Spare me your pity. You don't grok what it was about to us; that's fine. No one involved would judge you for not wanting to be involved. Yet you think it's fine to judge us for not conforming to your view of sexuality? Yeah, that's liberating.

[ad-kay.livejournal.com]

Why am I thinking these jokers wouldn't have asked any women accompanied by husbands or boyfriends?

[zoethe.livejournal.com]

First, at Penguicon no women were asked at all. Second, if you'd bothered to read you would see that even at the first one they asked women who were accompanied by men.

Of the 40 people who took Yes buttons, approximately 20 were worn by both partners in heterosexual couples. A few others were worn by wives whose husbands chose not to participate.

So, now it's time for you to decide that the women must have all been pressured into it by their husbands, who were treating them as property. Because no woman can actually own her own sexuality and do such a thing because they want to.

[slybrarian.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Women who wanted to participate wore buttons, and yet the men who got to do the touching didn't have to reciprocate and wear buttons of their own. I'm sure there's some sort of completely valid reason for that which didn't involve them being afraid that someone would ask to touch them back - or rather, being afraid that someone with the wrong set of genitalia would be asking.

[zoethe.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes they did, and got touched quite a bit.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

I think the people who wanted in on the project should be allowed to want in.

And I think the people who think the entire thing makes them unconfortable should be allowed to talk to Con management and explain how the Con would or could be losing money because of it.

IMO in the real world the entire thing would be a very bad idea, but who am I to stop people from doing things I consider bad ideas?

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

I lost all sympathy with Ringo when he decided to let one of his Posleen co-authors put in sympathetic SS stormtroopers. I hadn't come across the book you review, but it doesn't surprise me somehow...

[kokuten.livejournal.com]

have you read Watch On The Rhine?

[melfinatheblue.livejournal.com]

Okay, eww. Complete knee-jerk reaction, but eww. And I can guarantee that I would not be comfortable with it, would not want it happening anywhere around me, and would probably not speak up.

Does this make me a hypocrite since I am a proud member of the Kilt Inspection Team at DragonCon? Yeah, probably.

(I linked to your post in my journal. If not okay, please let me know and I will remove.)

[medie]

You know, the whole thing just keeps making me more and more uncomfortable. The implication that, by not feeling 100% \o/ over it, there's something wrong with me (and I've seen theferret make that insinuation in more than one comment so I'm not bothering to link) just pisses me off. How is it that when a woman isn't comfortable with something, CLEARLY something is wrong with her?

Um. NO.

My breasts aren't sexual organs until I decide I want them to be. In theory. Truth is, they become sexual organs everytime some man holds a conversation with them - without looking me in the eye once - or when they angle themselves to stand behind me at a desk so they can look down my shirt, when I have to look at every top I want to buy in the mall and think "is this too low or too form fitting? Will that phrase being written there draw more attention than I want to my breasts?"

There was this t-shirt on sale online once with the caption, "I Have a Big Rack" on it. I joked that I should buy it 'so they'd have something to read while they were down there' because, yeah, that's how much it happens.

The comment 'it's just a question'...Anytime the phrase 'it's just a -- ' is used, it's anything but 'just'. This is a question that cannot be asked out of context. There is now ignoring the daily issues that women have because of two freakin' lumps of flesh on their chest.

The day I can go outside and not worry 'is that man staring at my breasts'? THAT is the kind of sexual freedom I want.

But I'm not holding my breath until I get it.

[apocalypsos.livejournal.com]

You know, the whole thing just keeps making me more and more uncomfortable. The implication that, by not feeling 100% \o/ over it, there's something wrong with me (and I've seen theferret make that insinuation in more than one comment so I'm not bothering to link) just pisses me off. How is it that when a woman isn't comfortable with something, CLEARLY something is wrong with her?

What bothers me about the fact that we're getting that reaction online is that we're supposed to believe from the same people who were doing it that we wouldn't have gotten it in real life. You want to tell me that if I had denied the OSBP a grope of my breasts I wouldn't have had uncomfortable comments made about me either to my face or when I walked away when they seem to have no problem shouting, "Prude!" to me (and others) when we're expressing our displeasure online? Try showing my opinion and feelings regarding the subject a bit more respect and I might believe you. MIGHT.

Yes, yes, I'm sure everybody was wonderful and polite and the entire thing was like a great sparkly snowflake dance of heavy petting. But I've gotten to the point in my life where if I had gone to a con where this was going on I would probably have worn a green button specifically so that when I was asked I could say, "Oh, fuck, no!"

I just ... I'm sitting alone in my apartment wearing a tank top and no bra. I love my breasts. They're awesome. But I can tell you right now that a bunch of strangers asking me to touch them is not going to make me feel better about myself. You know what will? Tell me I have pretty eyes. Compliment my taste in T-shirts. Ask me what I'm reading. Involve me. And forget about my awesome tits.

[starbuck-a-dale.livejournal.com]

I am a lady (honest!) and also an ex-stripper so I've been party to a fair amount of unwanted groping. But as a feminist, woman with high self esteem and all the rest, I don't see what's wrong with being asked a question. Men ask me for their number sometimes, (not often) and I find it very easy to say 'no' to them, and don't find it offensive. Any polite question, unless prefaced by the term 'oi, bitch' is just that - a polite enquiry.

Now, I'm of the mind that anyone can ask me anything, as long as they refrain from insulting, or assaulting me, and if I say no, they damn well better not ask again. But that's it! The whole debacle and protest about women 'opting in' to the 'project' was about opting in to be *asked* - they still had the power to say no to everyone who asked, if they so wished. I really, really don't see a problem with that.

But if someone disagrees with me strongly enough to explain what really gets their goat about it, I'm totally up for hearing it.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

/ Now, I'm of the mind that anyone can ask me anything, as long as they refrain from insulting, or assaulting me, and if I say no, they damn well better not ask again. /

Which is fine for you, but a woman shouldn't give up the right to operate in a public forum and not be randomly forced to deal with unwanted sexual advances.

The opt-in is ridiculous because it was in a large mix venue and they couldn't guarantee any of the rules or limits being enforced in any real fashion.

All they had to do was rent a room.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

//grins I remain, as ever, an irredeemable smartass.

-- Also I pretty much LOVED IT that John Ringo himself linked to the post. OH HAI JOHN RINGO.

[xavierzane.livejournal.com]

reading through all this mess, i've had an ooky feeling in my stomach. partially anger, partially disgust, partially sadness, partially fear. partially some other shit too, but ooky kinda suffices, i think.

for the longest time i couldn't quite figure out what it was that was making me feel so:

was it the vicious, lynch mob-like-way in which people attacked for the simple action of expressing an idea? that's definitely sickening...

was it the pure judgmentalism writ large that i saw? that always twists my stomach...

was it the hypocrisy? (my favorite instance being the argument that the experiment was wrong because it might have offended, upset, or discomfited some present...while it's perfectly fine to offend, upset or insult the people everyone is attacking. it's the old, "I'm not bigoted! I hate all bigots!" dance.)

maybe it was the absurdity? (my favorite being the argument that the experiment was wrong because those involved couldn't guarantee that their intentions would be everyone's intentions: "well, sure, maybe you and your friends didn't mean for it to be all the things we've accused you of perpetuating, but can't you see that at some point someone might get out of hand?" If we're getting rid of all things that aren't perfect or perfectly regulated then we're getting rid of all things.)

maybe this...maybe that...there was certainly enough vitriol and bile to go around i think...

but eventually I realized what it was, and, to my anger, considering the amount of time i spent investigating it, I found that the ooky feeling really had nothing to do with this hideous debacle at all.

[rianax.livejournal.com]

Private affairs =/= public venue.

It is a certain expectation that going to a public forum means a a standard of communal behavior like not being asked randomly for someone to grope your breasts.

[anguisel.livejournal.com]

I'm torn in a lot of different ways about this. Interesting experiment, kinda. It wasn't well thought out and the place it happened was definitely in the wrong setting. That's the thing about an experiment, it needs to be in a controlled setting. A con isn't exactly a controlled setting because you can't keep track of all those that grabbed a button and actually participated in it. Then you have to add in that if it was a large con, that someone else might be handing out buttons or someone was wearing a button that they brought from home or to draw attention to the place they worked and it was mistaked for one of your buttons, so on and so on. Then there's the whole, they all were into it part. Women are polite, some of them were probably curious, went over to ask what's up, heard what's up and were thinking that they want no part of it but took a button anyway because they thought that they'd be called names and told they were insecure (pretty much what happened here) with their sexuality. Some of those women probably put on a button, walked around a bit avoiding men wearing buttons, made a beeline for the bathroom and tossed it in the trash. Then you'd have the people that would think it'd be a funny joke to play on someone totally clueless about the experiment and give their friend a button and lie about what it stood for. Then there were probably those that asked someone with a button what it was about, didn't want to deal with walking up to the booth and walking away, found out about it and it made them feel uncomfortable. There are so many variables that you can't speak for everyone, you don't know if they wanted to be part of it, if they were pressured into it (come on honey, it'll be fun and peer pressure do effect adults, especially from strangers because of the fact that cons are for meeting people) or a host of other problems that plague this.
Honestly, I don't give a damn if everyone was okay with it or not. I don't like it when someone calls something an experiment and doesn't give the stuff supporting it. Where's the hypothesis? Where's the percentages backing up the numbers? I've gone through all the links and haven't found anything that says 'Out of X of women that enquired about the experiment, Y declined to be a part of it while Z accepted and took either a green button or a red button. Of the Z women that accepted, # took a red button while # took a green one. Thus from con attendence, an average percent of # would take a green button while #% would take a red.' I guess that's what's pissing me off the most about this. If you're going to call something an experiment or hell even a project that you know might be an issue, give me the data to back it up instead of saying everyone was okay with it just because they took a button.
Personally, if I was at a con and this was happening, I'd be pretty uncomfortable about it. I don't care if I'm sexually secure in my image or not, just the sheer fact that a guy would need me to wear a button to know whether it's okay or not to grope me doesn't sit well. Ask me to my face. One, it means I know you thought about it (which creepy, perverted or not is somewhat flattering); Two, you had the balls to come up to me and actually ask; and Three, you never know what someone will say. It might be yes or it might be no, all you have to do is ask. And to me, that is more open and honest than anything any little experiment can do.

[hradzka.livejournal.com]

That said, seeing OH JOHN RINGO NO plastered all over this tempest has had me giggling like a loon all day

I'm absolutely stunned, to be honest. Glad a need has been met, but still quite surprised. I don't know which was more astounding to me: 1) somebody made a reference to OH JOHN RINGO NO on *metafilter* last night or 2) people rising up in a body to demand OH JOHN RINGO NO t-shirts.

Incidentally, if you know any fan artists who'd be interested in providing an illustration for an OH JOHN RINGO NO shirt, please let me know. The proceeds will benefit the Helen Bamber Foundation, which does a lot of work to help women who've been forced into prostitution. You know, like John Ringo's hero. ...in a way. (Ringo himself has endorsed the project and the charity drive, which is very nice of him.)

[starbuck-a-dale.livejournal.com]

Dude, you have to give him props for being so damn cool about the whole thing!