Self-important blabbing about writing Water Hold Me Down and characterization. Feel free to ignore.
It's hoooooot. Actually, it's not so much the heat. It's the fact that there's no air. All breezes have stopped. All the fans are doing is pushing the air around, but not cooling anything off. I took no less than two showers last night just to bring my skin temperature down.
Even so, I couldn't even sleep last night. I ended up working on Water Hold Me Down until the early morning hours because it was impossible to even try going to bed.
I called in today because I felt like crap and desperately needed sleep. I've been napping off and on all day, but the heat won't let me do more than that. I also started chugging Gatorade today, which has done a lot to make me feel better. Me thinks I've been losing electrolytes in this heat. Until this massive heat wave breaks, I think I'm going to lay in a store of the stuff, because drinking a gallon of water a day is just not cutting it.
So, if you feel like reading some of my heat stroke-inspired revelations I had while writing Water Hold Me Down, enter at your own risk.
BtVS, petty cruelty, the fear of being alone, and why Marty!Stu!Xander! doesn't work for me.
These next few parts of Water Hold Me Down have been difficult to put together. I'm writing the next two alternate universe installments from alternaXander's point of view. While I've always said that I love Xander for his faults (which is true), I really hate accentuating that petty side of Xander (which is there, let's be honest).
Xander in Living History — which I have to upload the earlier parts of that to here from Fan Fiction Dot Net — and Water Hold Me Down (not so much in Whisper) at least recognizes he can be petty and does try to keep a tight leash on it. I think it's pretty well-grounded in canon. During S7, we did see Xander steadfastly refusing to comment on Spike. We know he's not happy about the situation, but he once he makes his feelings known at the beginning of the season, he simply drops it after 'Sleeper.' Buffy's decision to look more into Spike's activities, instead of confronting Spike with what she'd heard from Holden, signals to Xander that Buffy will do exactly what she wants to do with regards to Spike. You can see he's not happy with it, but he stops arguing his point after that episode.
So, my fanwanky argument for the purposes of Water Hold Me Down, is that Xander is somewhat aware that he can be vindicitively petty and does his best to keep that from affecting his actions. He doesn't always succeed (in fact, he can fail spectacularly), but he does try.
AlternaXander, by contrast, is still too focused on past slights in Water Hold Me Down. Although he actually does have a reason to feel like he's been slighted, it's not necessarily a good reason (or I should say, Xander will question those reasons once he finds out near the end of the story). The fact that alternaXander is still carrying a grudge for what happened around the events that sparked the long process of him getting separated from the other Scoobs on at least an emotional level makes it impossible for him to realize that he just might be wrong about what really happened and why. When Xander points out that maybe the alternaScoobs may have had a point, alternaXander is going to see that as a betrayal, rather than someone who's trying to see all sides of the argument.
So what does this have to do with Marty!Stu!Xander!?
Writing this AU has clarified why I hate Marty!Stu!Xander! stories: it's because they tend to accentuate Xander's petty side. I'm sure the authors don't see it that way, since they're very clearly going for that "lone hero" angle. However, that's not how it comes across, especially when Marty!Stu!Xander! has the inevitable blow-out with his "so-called" friends that catalogs every little even slightly bad thing they've done to him. The authors seem to forget that the Scoobs can be extraordinarly and thoughtlessly cruel to one another, but it's in a way that shows that they take each other somewhat for granted. They're occassionally nasty to each other because they can. They know (at least up until Giles takes off during S6) that no one is going anywhere. I'm not saying that it's right or even a good thing. What I'm saying is that I think that's the subconcious undercurrent in all their interactions in during the series itself.
In fact, S6 had a "leaving" theme written all over it. Giles leaves the Scoobs and Sunnydale. Xander literally disappears from Sunnydale after his wedding tanks. Tara leaves Willow because she feels like she's being treated as a piece of meat (I know Tara said it was over magic issues, but the truth is Tara showed little concern about Willow's magic issues until she realized she was being manipulated by that same magic). Willow leaves everyone behind when she goes on her killing spree, although you could argue that she mentally leaves her friends behind as she gets pulled more and more into magic. Anya abandons her humanity the moment something doesn't go according to her life plan. Spike flees town after the attempted rape to "fix" things (I say he wanted to get the chip out based on what I saw on screen; others argue that he left to get a soul. I won't argue that point one way or the other, so let's agree to disagree). Buffy spends most of S6 so isolated that one could argue that she's mentally and emotionally checked out (something that we got whacked with during 'Normal Again') to the point of potentially being a danger to herself and others.
The only person who isn't actually running, in fact, the only person fighting to keep them together, in S6 is Dawn. Her fear of being left behind (which eerily echoes Xander's same fears in 'Fear, Itself' and 'Restless') is so strong that she's able to attract the attention of Hallie who grants her wish that no one ever leave her in 'Older and Far Away.'
Given that S6 was litered with everyone abandoning their roles or their posts in one way or another, it's no wonder that Buffy in S7 believed that when the chips were down, the only one she could count on was herself and Spike. Of everyone who "left" Sunnydale, Spike is the only one who left because he did her wrong. I'm not saying it's true, or not true, but looking at it from Buffy's pov, that's the way it does look. Toss in that Spike said he got the soul for her, it's no wonder why she forgot all the times her friends stood by her in the previous 7 years. Every single one of them did abandon Sunnydale (and her, to an extent) for various reasons just the year before. With all the pressure she was under, it's no wonder why, deep down inside, she believed it could happen again when things got really rough with the First.
Call it the "attaboy-oh shit" rule: One "oh shit" equals ten "attaboys." It isn't about, "What have you ever done for me?" It's about, "What have you done for me lately?" And Buffy's most recent memories of the Scoobs have them runing away from trouble or causing trouble that lead to bigger trouble. That's the thing most fresh in her mind and that's the thing she's afraid of: that she really can't trust her friends to be there with her until the end.
That fear became a self-fulfilling prophecy when the Scoobs finally rebelled against her generalissimo ways and her lack of empathy for anyone not her or Spike. ("Hi, Xander! How's the eye? Let's go attack Caleb again using the same tactics that nearly got us all killed as before!") To an extent, yes, Buffy brought it on herself. Everyone simply had enough of being harranged and she just led them into a trap. It wasn't until Giles spoke up and said that Buffy only trusted Spike that Willow and Xander finally decided that they had enough. And people forget: Buffy chose to leave the house rather than work within the new framework with Faith as the leader.
So, how does this apply to Water Hold Me Down?
Xander's Characterization in the 'Whisper'-verse: On some level, Xander still thinks in terms of 'the pack.'
I realized with this story that I don't tend to write Xander as a loner or a lone wolf. He can be secretive. He can be uncommunicative. But, by and large, Xander is more comfortable operating within a group. While I wouldn't say my version of him wants to be the head cheese, he's not afraid of taking over if he has to. In the version I tend to write, he'd rather have some recognition for what he does contribute and some authority to go with his responsibility. In short, he's the perfect second-in-command. Or, as Terry Pratchett would put it, "he's the ideal sargeant" in that he has mad networking skills, knows where the bodies are buried, and never says everything he knows.
It's not that Xander can't operate on his own. He can do it if he sets his mind to it. It's just that he's not comfortable operating in that manner. Part of it is that he doesn't think he's capable. But part of it, let's be honest, is maybe that Xander doesn't want that much responsibility. (Something that does actually come up.)
I guess I think of Xander as the beta male in a wolf pack. He can work with anyone he thinks of as part of "his pack," even if he doesn't particularly like them. But, if another beta (like Robin, say) oversteps their bounds, he'll jump in with the smackdown or argue against them until they "learn" their place in the pack, something which can be both good and bad. I suppose this makes Buffy and Giles the alpha female and male in Xander's "pack" within the world of the Whisper-verse.
I honestly don't think Xander wants to be the alpha — although he does want to be recognized for what he does contribute to the pack. I think it boils down to the fact that he doesn't really think that the extra perks of being one of the alphas is worth the headache. However, if something happens with the male and female alphas, he is capable of stepping up to the alpha male role on at least a temporary basis.
The big question is what Xander would do if someone else he didn't think "deserved it" tried to step into the alpha role absent Buffy and Giles.
I realized this in going back to check some things I wrote in earlier chapters to make sure I was being consistent. Xander knows, at least within the world of Water Hold Me Down, that he is not very good at operating alone. He's painfully aware that he lacks Willow's or Giles's brainpower and that he lacks Faith's and Buffy's extra skills. However, he doesn't really see his strengths come into play because his strengths are so closely tied to his weaknesses. Other people see those strengths, and some of them are even a little leery of them. While he might get a flash that he might be a frightening figure to some people, he doesn't actually attribute it to the fact that he is who he is. He externalizes it: it's because of something he did, or said, or represents. In his mind, it has nothing to do with who he is.
Just the same, he doesn't realize how well he actually did while he was on his own. Because of his "not very good" research skills, he was able to transmit vitally important information to Giles and spur alternaFaith and alternaRupert to transmit additional critical information. He instinctively figured out that alternaRupert's "problem" of fate being messed up wasn't the problem; the problem was the mindset Rupert was working with. His automatic assumptions about alternaFaith's abilities and capabilities have won him a key ally without him realizing it. And let's not forget, Xander's "not very good fighting skills" are going to critically come into play.
If I can point to any consistent characterization I put into writing Xander it's this: he believes that he needs to operate within a group and acts accordingly. Furthmore, if he needs it, then almost everyone needs it (again, this can be good or bad depending on who he's dealing with) because one person (in his mind) can't be good at everything.
Now that you've been subjected to my blowhard reasoning behind Xander's characterization, how does this play into alternaXander's characterization?
Giving alternaXander a voice. I just wish he'd shut up.
If you're curious, these next two alternate universe parts were the two parts I recently nuked. I had originally written them from Xander's pov, but realized something: it didn't work.
For a start, Xander's still missing key information about his alternate version. As a result, in Xander's eyes, alternaXander comes across as completely irrational and possibly even teetering on the brink of nutso-hood. Understandable on some level, since Haley is missing. But, at some point, alternaXander verbally attacks Xander, an attack that, from Our Hero's pov (and possibly the reader's), seemingly comes out of the blue.
It's no secret that, for purposes of this story, the readers know a hell of a lot more about what's going on than the characters trapped in it. However, the two secenes in question come across as incredibly confusing when viewed from Xander's limited pov. The information comes out jumbled and disjointed when viewed from Xander's perspective. However, I'm now faced with another problem: telling these next two parts from altrnaXander's pov might have some people wondering why Xander's not picking up on what alternaXander's saying.
So, I settled on this: I'd rather think people reading the story thought that Xander was being a thick-o than confuse the hell out of them and possibly throwing them out of the plot.
Another reason for the change from Xander's to alternaXander pov: to illustrate something of a key difference between the two of them.
Xander has somewhat internalized alternaXander. While Xander doesn't "get" him completely, he at least recognizes that they are the same guy. Even when he thought he was in the midst of a delusion, he always recognized the "evil twin" as being part of himself. Even though he knows this is reality, Xander still recognizes bits of himself — just as he recgonizes bits of his Faith and his Giles in alternaFaith and alternaRupert — inside his alternate self. While Xander is not the most self-aware human being on the planet (hell, he's not even the most self-aware person in his circle of friends), he is self-aware enough to at least see the good and bad in his alternate version and accept that a lot of those same characteristics apply to himself. As a result, how Xander refers to his alternative version is very fluid, going from "other Xander" to "other him" to "evil twin," and back-and-forth along the the scale. AlternaXander doesn't have a fixed identity in Xander's mind and he just applies whatever's appropriate.
AlternaXander, on the other hand, views Xander as a complete mystery. He doesn't understand him or the way he thinks. In fact, he assumes that they probably don't even think alike, an assumption that, to his mind, is confirmed by the end of the next two story cycles. Instead of accepting that this less-than-pleasant person from another universe shares a lot in common with him, he puts up a very rigid mental wall between them. His references to Xander are rigid to the point of repetition by constantly refering Xander as a "mirror-Xander." In addition, Xander reminds him more of other people, but never of himself. And so, alternaXander manages to mentally kill any hope of actually communicating with Xander on any meaningful level. Xander's been "otherized" and doesn't realize it. So, in a sense, alternaXander is right. By the time these two story cycles in the alternative universe are done, they really don't think anything alike. The sad thing is, the reasons for that aren't because of their different expereiences, but because alternaXander has decided that it's the case.
It's a tricky thing to write, but I think I actually pulled it off. We'll see.
Then, there's the other big reason: you the readers deserve at least a partial payoff on where it all went different. This is a point where alternaXander is forced to work with people from his past that he never thought he'd have to work with again. A lot of the past is going to be strong in his thoughts while the group plans to search for Haley and that poison would be bubbling in the back of his mind. It was a perfect time and way to give readers some of the information without giving Xander the same information.
Best of all, Xander's left stunned and hurt by alternaXander's verbal attack, so much so that it does affect him in some insidious ways (specifically in PTSD ways), because, remember, Xander has already internalized alternaXander as someone who shares more common traits than not (unlike his counterpart). So any judegement alternaXander passes on him is going to carry a lot of weight.
In other news, I want to thank
mara_sho for reccing Ishmael Sings of the White Whale for concrit at
club_joss.
I'm hoping people read it and there's a good discussion, even if someone just pops in to say that they really didn't like it and states why. I don't know why, but I usually do get a small nugget of something when people are willing to elaborate on the reasons why they don't like a story, usually because it points out some issues I have to work on in my writing.
Although, I'm not sure how coherent I'll be for any discussion because, still really hot.
Even so, I couldn't even sleep last night. I ended up working on Water Hold Me Down until the early morning hours because it was impossible to even try going to bed.
I called in today because I felt like crap and desperately needed sleep. I've been napping off and on all day, but the heat won't let me do more than that. I also started chugging Gatorade today, which has done a lot to make me feel better. Me thinks I've been losing electrolytes in this heat. Until this massive heat wave breaks, I think I'm going to lay in a store of the stuff, because drinking a gallon of water a day is just not cutting it.
So, if you feel like reading some of my heat stroke-inspired revelations I had while writing Water Hold Me Down, enter at your own risk.
BtVS, petty cruelty, the fear of being alone, and why Marty!Stu!Xander! doesn't work for me.
These next few parts of Water Hold Me Down have been difficult to put together. I'm writing the next two alternate universe installments from alternaXander's point of view. While I've always said that I love Xander for his faults (which is true), I really hate accentuating that petty side of Xander (which is there, let's be honest).
Xander in Living History — which I have to upload the earlier parts of that to here from Fan Fiction Dot Net — and Water Hold Me Down (not so much in Whisper) at least recognizes he can be petty and does try to keep a tight leash on it. I think it's pretty well-grounded in canon. During S7, we did see Xander steadfastly refusing to comment on Spike. We know he's not happy about the situation, but he once he makes his feelings known at the beginning of the season, he simply drops it after 'Sleeper.' Buffy's decision to look more into Spike's activities, instead of confronting Spike with what she'd heard from Holden, signals to Xander that Buffy will do exactly what she wants to do with regards to Spike. You can see he's not happy with it, but he stops arguing his point after that episode.
So, my fanwanky argument for the purposes of Water Hold Me Down, is that Xander is somewhat aware that he can be vindicitively petty and does his best to keep that from affecting his actions. He doesn't always succeed (in fact, he can fail spectacularly), but he does try.
AlternaXander, by contrast, is still too focused on past slights in Water Hold Me Down. Although he actually does have a reason to feel like he's been slighted, it's not necessarily a good reason (or I should say, Xander will question those reasons once he finds out near the end of the story). The fact that alternaXander is still carrying a grudge for what happened around the events that sparked the long process of him getting separated from the other Scoobs on at least an emotional level makes it impossible for him to realize that he just might be wrong about what really happened and why. When Xander points out that maybe the alternaScoobs may have had a point, alternaXander is going to see that as a betrayal, rather than someone who's trying to see all sides of the argument.
So what does this have to do with Marty!Stu!Xander!?
Writing this AU has clarified why I hate Marty!Stu!Xander! stories: it's because they tend to accentuate Xander's petty side. I'm sure the authors don't see it that way, since they're very clearly going for that "lone hero" angle. However, that's not how it comes across, especially when Marty!Stu!Xander! has the inevitable blow-out with his "so-called" friends that catalogs every little even slightly bad thing they've done to him. The authors seem to forget that the Scoobs can be extraordinarly and thoughtlessly cruel to one another, but it's in a way that shows that they take each other somewhat for granted. They're occassionally nasty to each other because they can. They know (at least up until Giles takes off during S6) that no one is going anywhere. I'm not saying that it's right or even a good thing. What I'm saying is that I think that's the subconcious undercurrent in all their interactions in during the series itself.
In fact, S6 had a "leaving" theme written all over it. Giles leaves the Scoobs and Sunnydale. Xander literally disappears from Sunnydale after his wedding tanks. Tara leaves Willow because she feels like she's being treated as a piece of meat (I know Tara said it was over magic issues, but the truth is Tara showed little concern about Willow's magic issues until she realized she was being manipulated by that same magic). Willow leaves everyone behind when she goes on her killing spree, although you could argue that she mentally leaves her friends behind as she gets pulled more and more into magic. Anya abandons her humanity the moment something doesn't go according to her life plan. Spike flees town after the attempted rape to "fix" things (I say he wanted to get the chip out based on what I saw on screen; others argue that he left to get a soul. I won't argue that point one way or the other, so let's agree to disagree). Buffy spends most of S6 so isolated that one could argue that she's mentally and emotionally checked out (something that we got whacked with during 'Normal Again') to the point of potentially being a danger to herself and others.
The only person who isn't actually running, in fact, the only person fighting to keep them together, in S6 is Dawn. Her fear of being left behind (which eerily echoes Xander's same fears in 'Fear, Itself' and 'Restless') is so strong that she's able to attract the attention of Hallie who grants her wish that no one ever leave her in 'Older and Far Away.'
Given that S6 was litered with everyone abandoning their roles or their posts in one way or another, it's no wonder that Buffy in S7 believed that when the chips were down, the only one she could count on was herself and Spike. Of everyone who "left" Sunnydale, Spike is the only one who left because he did her wrong. I'm not saying it's true, or not true, but looking at it from Buffy's pov, that's the way it does look. Toss in that Spike said he got the soul for her, it's no wonder why she forgot all the times her friends stood by her in the previous 7 years. Every single one of them did abandon Sunnydale (and her, to an extent) for various reasons just the year before. With all the pressure she was under, it's no wonder why, deep down inside, she believed it could happen again when things got really rough with the First.
Call it the "attaboy-oh shit" rule: One "oh shit" equals ten "attaboys." It isn't about, "What have you ever done for me?" It's about, "What have you done for me lately?" And Buffy's most recent memories of the Scoobs have them runing away from trouble or causing trouble that lead to bigger trouble. That's the thing most fresh in her mind and that's the thing she's afraid of: that she really can't trust her friends to be there with her until the end.
That fear became a self-fulfilling prophecy when the Scoobs finally rebelled against her generalissimo ways and her lack of empathy for anyone not her or Spike. ("Hi, Xander! How's the eye? Let's go attack Caleb again using the same tactics that nearly got us all killed as before!") To an extent, yes, Buffy brought it on herself. Everyone simply had enough of being harranged and she just led them into a trap. It wasn't until Giles spoke up and said that Buffy only trusted Spike that Willow and Xander finally decided that they had enough. And people forget: Buffy chose to leave the house rather than work within the new framework with Faith as the leader.
So, how does this apply to Water Hold Me Down?
Xander's Characterization in the 'Whisper'-verse: On some level, Xander still thinks in terms of 'the pack.'
I realized with this story that I don't tend to write Xander as a loner or a lone wolf. He can be secretive. He can be uncommunicative. But, by and large, Xander is more comfortable operating within a group. While I wouldn't say my version of him wants to be the head cheese, he's not afraid of taking over if he has to. In the version I tend to write, he'd rather have some recognition for what he does contribute and some authority to go with his responsibility. In short, he's the perfect second-in-command. Or, as Terry Pratchett would put it, "he's the ideal sargeant" in that he has mad networking skills, knows where the bodies are buried, and never says everything he knows.
It's not that Xander can't operate on his own. He can do it if he sets his mind to it. It's just that he's not comfortable operating in that manner. Part of it is that he doesn't think he's capable. But part of it, let's be honest, is maybe that Xander doesn't want that much responsibility. (Something that does actually come up.)
I guess I think of Xander as the beta male in a wolf pack. He can work with anyone he thinks of as part of "his pack," even if he doesn't particularly like them. But, if another beta (like Robin, say) oversteps their bounds, he'll jump in with the smackdown or argue against them until they "learn" their place in the pack, something which can be both good and bad. I suppose this makes Buffy and Giles the alpha female and male in Xander's "pack" within the world of the Whisper-verse.
I honestly don't think Xander wants to be the alpha — although he does want to be recognized for what he does contribute to the pack. I think it boils down to the fact that he doesn't really think that the extra perks of being one of the alphas is worth the headache. However, if something happens with the male and female alphas, he is capable of stepping up to the alpha male role on at least a temporary basis.
The big question is what Xander would do if someone else he didn't think "deserved it" tried to step into the alpha role absent Buffy and Giles.
I realized this in going back to check some things I wrote in earlier chapters to make sure I was being consistent. Xander knows, at least within the world of Water Hold Me Down, that he is not very good at operating alone. He's painfully aware that he lacks Willow's or Giles's brainpower and that he lacks Faith's and Buffy's extra skills. However, he doesn't really see his strengths come into play because his strengths are so closely tied to his weaknesses. Other people see those strengths, and some of them are even a little leery of them. While he might get a flash that he might be a frightening figure to some people, he doesn't actually attribute it to the fact that he is who he is. He externalizes it: it's because of something he did, or said, or represents. In his mind, it has nothing to do with who he is.
Just the same, he doesn't realize how well he actually did while he was on his own. Because of his "not very good" research skills, he was able to transmit vitally important information to Giles and spur alternaFaith and alternaRupert to transmit additional critical information. He instinctively figured out that alternaRupert's "problem" of fate being messed up wasn't the problem; the problem was the mindset Rupert was working with. His automatic assumptions about alternaFaith's abilities and capabilities have won him a key ally without him realizing it. And let's not forget, Xander's "not very good fighting skills" are going to critically come into play.
If I can point to any consistent characterization I put into writing Xander it's this: he believes that he needs to operate within a group and acts accordingly. Furthmore, if he needs it, then almost everyone needs it (again, this can be good or bad depending on who he's dealing with) because one person (in his mind) can't be good at everything.
Now that you've been subjected to my blowhard reasoning behind Xander's characterization, how does this play into alternaXander's characterization?
Giving alternaXander a voice. I just wish he'd shut up.
If you're curious, these next two alternate universe parts were the two parts I recently nuked. I had originally written them from Xander's pov, but realized something: it didn't work.
For a start, Xander's still missing key information about his alternate version. As a result, in Xander's eyes, alternaXander comes across as completely irrational and possibly even teetering on the brink of nutso-hood. Understandable on some level, since Haley is missing. But, at some point, alternaXander verbally attacks Xander, an attack that, from Our Hero's pov (and possibly the reader's), seemingly comes out of the blue.
It's no secret that, for purposes of this story, the readers know a hell of a lot more about what's going on than the characters trapped in it. However, the two secenes in question come across as incredibly confusing when viewed from Xander's limited pov. The information comes out jumbled and disjointed when viewed from Xander's perspective. However, I'm now faced with another problem: telling these next two parts from altrnaXander's pov might have some people wondering why Xander's not picking up on what alternaXander's saying.
So, I settled on this: I'd rather think people reading the story thought that Xander was being a thick-o than confuse the hell out of them and possibly throwing them out of the plot.
Another reason for the change from Xander's to alternaXander pov: to illustrate something of a key difference between the two of them.
Xander has somewhat internalized alternaXander. While Xander doesn't "get" him completely, he at least recognizes that they are the same guy. Even when he thought he was in the midst of a delusion, he always recognized the "evil twin" as being part of himself. Even though he knows this is reality, Xander still recognizes bits of himself — just as he recgonizes bits of his Faith and his Giles in alternaFaith and alternaRupert — inside his alternate self. While Xander is not the most self-aware human being on the planet (hell, he's not even the most self-aware person in his circle of friends), he is self-aware enough to at least see the good and bad in his alternate version and accept that a lot of those same characteristics apply to himself. As a result, how Xander refers to his alternative version is very fluid, going from "other Xander" to "other him" to "evil twin," and back-and-forth along the the scale. AlternaXander doesn't have a fixed identity in Xander's mind and he just applies whatever's appropriate.
AlternaXander, on the other hand, views Xander as a complete mystery. He doesn't understand him or the way he thinks. In fact, he assumes that they probably don't even think alike, an assumption that, to his mind, is confirmed by the end of the next two story cycles. Instead of accepting that this less-than-pleasant person from another universe shares a lot in common with him, he puts up a very rigid mental wall between them. His references to Xander are rigid to the point of repetition by constantly refering Xander as a "mirror-Xander." In addition, Xander reminds him more of other people, but never of himself. And so, alternaXander manages to mentally kill any hope of actually communicating with Xander on any meaningful level. Xander's been "otherized" and doesn't realize it. So, in a sense, alternaXander is right. By the time these two story cycles in the alternative universe are done, they really don't think anything alike. The sad thing is, the reasons for that aren't because of their different expereiences, but because alternaXander has decided that it's the case.
It's a tricky thing to write, but I think I actually pulled it off. We'll see.
Then, there's the other big reason: you the readers deserve at least a partial payoff on where it all went different. This is a point where alternaXander is forced to work with people from his past that he never thought he'd have to work with again. A lot of the past is going to be strong in his thoughts while the group plans to search for Haley and that poison would be bubbling in the back of his mind. It was a perfect time and way to give readers some of the information without giving Xander the same information.
Best of all, Xander's left stunned and hurt by alternaXander's verbal attack, so much so that it does affect him in some insidious ways (specifically in PTSD ways), because, remember, Xander has already internalized alternaXander as someone who shares more common traits than not (unlike his counterpart). So any judegement alternaXander passes on him is going to carry a lot of weight.
In other news, I want to thank
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
I'm hoping people read it and there's a good discussion, even if someone just pops in to say that they really didn't like it and states why. I don't know why, but I usually do get a small nugget of something when people are willing to elaborate on the reasons why they don't like a story, usually because it points out some issues I have to work on in my writing.
Although, I'm not sure how coherent I'll be for any discussion because, still really hot.
Hmmmmm
no subject
But the meta here thrills me. This, especially -- If I can point to any consistent characterization I put into writing Xander it's this: he believes that he needs to operate within a group and acts accordingly -- is perfectly in sync with my perception of the character, and is the major character element in something I've been working on. So again, I'm very excited to read Water!
All this said, about While Xander is not the most self-aware human being on the planet (hell, he's not even the most self-aware person in his circle of friends) -- I tend to agree. Yet Jane Espenson once said that she thought of Xander as the most self-aware of the Scoobs, of having the most realistic vision of himself of all of them. And I wonder, was that true at one time? And if so, did Xander lose self-awareness, or did the others overtake him as they matured? (I think an argument could be made for Buffy gaining a huge step forward in self-awareness in her session with Holden.) Or was Jane E. just wrong? Or am I? Hmm.
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And not just because I don't want to argue with Jane E.'s take.
Xander, of everyone in the Scoobs, is the most self-aware of his shortcomings by the time the series ends. He got a little lost in the pressures of S6, but by the end of S7 he was probably the most adult of all the Scoobs, to the point where Giles was treating him as a complete equal.
For example, although we didn't see it, one-eyed Xander makes reference to Giles joking with him about his missing eye. Some people viewed that throw-away comment as cruel and NB plays it like Xander's not entirely thrilled about it. But it also shows Giles is operating on Xander's level. Hell, Giles was even playing D&D and directing a lot of his meta comments at Xander.
So, yeah, on one level, Xander is more self-aware that he's got issues that can lead him into trouble. I think it's a key element in Xander's process to adulthood.
I also argue that he's not the most self-aware person about his strengths or that what he says carries more weight in some quarters than he realizes.
For example, a lot of the reason why Buffy kept throwing Dawn under Xander's protection in the last two episodes (I argue) is because she knew that Xander would do everything in his power to make sure Dawn stayed alive. It's not that Giles or Willow would deliberately put Dawn in danger, it's that they'd more likely be more pragmatic about what they could or couldn't do. Anya was even more likely to tend towards pragmatism and didn't really have as strong an emotional connection as Xander, Willow, or Giles. As for Andrew...well, would you want Andrew watching your sister's back? And Robin was a total unknown who already (in Buffy's mind) had proved unreliable. Faith wasn't even an option.
Xander, in typical Xander fashion, saw it as Buffy putting him out to pasture the first time. He didn't even question it the second time when she changed the line-up on him to put him with Dawn. Although I'd like to think that he eventually figured it out.
So maybe I'd put it like this: in my own little fanworld, Xander is the character most aware of his problems and works to make sure they don't trip him up so he can do his job in his "pack."
His friends tend to be more aware of their strengths and are still figuring out their weaknesses (a threshold I'm working to make Willow cross by the end of Water).
Though that's just my fanwank. :-)
Need to add a *squeeee*
I'm thrilled we both see Xander the same way (your Seeing Africa influenced how I wrote him in Contrite Spirits to a huge degree).
And yay! You're working on another Xander story! Yipee!
*ahem*
And no worries about WiPs. I totally and completely understand. :-)
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I just have a couple of comments:
Tara leaves Willow because she feels like she's being treated as a piece of meat (I know Tara said it was over magic issues, but the truth is Tara showed little concern about Willow's magic issues until she realized she was being manipulated by that same magic).
I would definitely have to disagree here. Tara was extremely concerned about Willow's problems with magic. She warned her about it multiple times before Willow mindwiped her (in fact, that was the reason that Willow mindwiped her). And I really think that the reason Tara left her was because she realized that Willow was beyond help (or at least, any help she could give), and she had to take action to protect herself at that point.
Now, you can take issue with the way she reacted, but I don't think you can say Tara wasn't concerned about Willow's magic issues. There's a good deal of canonical evidence that she was concerned.
And Buffy's most recent memories of the Scoobs have them runing away from trouble or causing trouble that lead to bigger trouble. That's the thing most fresh in her mind and that's the thing she's afraid of: that she really can't trust her friends to be there with her until the end.
I think there was something else that played into this as well. One of the consequences of being abused is that it makes it very difficult for the victim to love and trust others. And I think the abuse that Buffy suffered at Spike's hands in season 6 was a significant factor in her relationships with Willow and Xander in S6 (and even on into S7 to a smaller degree). I mean, look at the beginning of S7 - Buffy, while not romantically interested in Xander, is downright chummy with him until Spike comes back, and then her attitude toward him changes dramatically. I don't think the timing here is a coincidence.
Now, Willow and Xander's actions certainly do carry some of the blame for the way Buffy viewed them. But I think what Spike did to her also played a very significant part, as well.
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Needless to say, I use the Buffy Guide a lot for anything related to S6 and S7.
I think I may have wiped it because of the St. Tara-of-the-Roses the writers tended to be shoving down our throats.
As for Buffy and Spike, I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I heartily agree with it. And as I've stated before, I actually didn't have an issue with how the Buffy-Spike relationship was played in S6 because, hello, Spike didn't have a soul and really doesn't have a sense of right and wrong. He's a walking id with legs who's extremely possessive. My issue with it is completely meta (how some quarters of fandom tried to romanticize it into something it wasn't).
Also, how the Spike-Buffy relationship played out in S7 and the sidelining of the Scoobs (most notably Giles and Xander) really left a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, I just think the whole season was poorly constructed once you get beyond Conversations With Dead People from a storytelling perspective. But that's another rant for another day.
For the purposes above, I was arguing the whole "trust issue" more from Buffy's pov, as opposed to an overall description of the intra-Scooby dynamic. They're all to blame on some level, the degree to which who is most at fault is open for debate, depending on your particular fanwank and your particular favorite character. I tend to put the greatest amount of blame on Buffy for her isolation during S7, mostly because she had learned this same lesson (she's not alone) no less than a million times before. (This is why S5 Buffy is my favorite iteration: she finally got it and was willing to stand up to the Council on that principle!) Other people tend to blame Spike. Some people can make a good argument that Robin was the person who finally tipped things over the edge.
*shrug*
Like I said, I agree with you.
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First, I'm very much looking forward to the next two chapters, it will be a real treat to crawl into alterna!Xander's head for awhile. I think Xander's maturing process took off at the beginning of S5 and continued right through to the end of S7, allowing for the fact that continuity was never Joss's strongest suit and different writers viewed the character in different ways, I think it was a pretty steady progression.
I whole heartedly agree with you that Xander needs his people around him, also that he underestimates himself. Beta male seems a very apt term for him. That said, I think even he recognizes that in certain arenas he's the alpha. I think this is mainly exhibited in his work so it's mostly off camera but we've gotten enough glimpses that I picture him as confidently in command at the job site. In the slaying realm he firmly categorizes himself as back up or side kick.
I think he's a lone wolf in one regard though. He'll ignore or suppress his own emotional anguish. We saw this from Jesse on. After the wedding debacle (for which I may never forgive Joss) he goes off to lick his wounds alone. You rarely see him going to Buffy and Willow for emotional support. The few times I can think of him trying I remember him being patted on the head or blown off. I don't think in an intentional way so much as they're not used to Xander wanting that support and don't know how to respond. Xander, on the other hand is a comfortador. Buffy and Willow both cry on his shoulder with regularity. It's probably also kind of a guy/girl thing. The point is, Xander plays his own pain pretty close to his chest.
On Buffy, you make some very interesting points about S7 Buffy and I agree with most of them, especially in regards her relationship with Giles in S7. He abandoned her once, he could very easily do it again, just when she needs him most. For Willow and Xander though, I think part of what's working is that they never really got past the whole ripping her out of heaven thing. At least its never resolved onscreen. Outwardly she seems to forgive them but I think inwardly it causes her to call their judgement into question, makes her less likely to listen to opposing arguments. She trusts Spike in S7 primarily because she says jump and he asks how high. In S7 he never questions her authority or second guesses her judgement. Regardless of why he does this it makes her place him in the loyal soldier camp when others are questioning her orders.
This is getting long so let me just conclude with I love your writing and I love your take on Xander.
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I wasn't even considering RL issues, such as construction, when writing the above. I was only looking at it within a Scooby dynamic. But you are right: in those areas where Xander knows he reigns supreme, he has no trouble taking charge.
As for the lone wolf issue when it comes to ask for help: hmmmm. Good point. He tends to not be vary sharing about his own emotional needs, which means people the people who know him best or have a fixed idea in their heads about who he is might miss signs that he's in distress. (Which, yes, this oddly enough does come into play in a round-about way in Water, but has a slightly different outcome than what you'd usually see in canon.)
Although, I wonder how much of it is because he doesn't think his problems are as important as, say, Buffy's or Willow's?
Either way, you end up with the same problem (vicious? meet cycle.) Xander doesn't tell anyone when he's hurting and does his best to hide it (something which is also pretty consistent in canon). His friends are not used to looking for signs of distress in him and don't consider that there might be a lot more going on with him that meets the eye.
I agree with you 100 percent about Buffy. :-)
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Julia, yup, it's a page, and we're all on it
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This is all extra interesting to me as it plays into something I'm writing right now.
The one where; Xander tends to learn his lessons and learn em well
One snippet that occurred to me when reading the other post was this. In S3, we 'suddenly' start getting more clue's that Xander's home life is not all of the good (granted, there was that Armenian comment in S2, but that could have been taken as a bad joke. It's not to far out there, to believe that Xander's parents might share a similar sense of humor with their son).
The situation at home might have deteriorated around S3, but it could also be that nothing changed and Xander only now felt he could come to the others with his problems.
Of course he'd known Willow for years and knew he could trust her, but to me he always seemed like the protector in that relationship. Willow wasn't really strong and confident until S3 (and even up to Restless she kept having hidden issue's). I think he would feel that he had to protect her from his home situation as to not upset her.
As for Buffy. In S1, Xander is still trying (foolishly) to assert himself as a hero in her eyes (give up kid. You can't keep up with a slayer ;). In S2 they evened out as friends, but she had her own issues. Not to mention that the whole Angelus debacle might have shaken his trust in her somewhat.
When it comes to the only adult figure, Giles, Xander probably felt that the all out protectiveness he had for the girls didn't apply to him. He might be somewhat right about that, though I don't buy that Giles would have stood by if Xander had come to him for help, even if he would have been all awkward about it.
In the beginning of S3 however the group dynamic was pretty tight and he finally starts releasing snippets. True to form he never follows up on it and flat out states that he's in trouble. The barely there reactions he gets from the others probably strenghtened him in his belief that he should just bottle it all up and deal. In fact the most extreme revelations don't come from him, but a vengeful Cordy.
To me it seems he's 'learned his lesson' and from then on tries to deal with is problems on his own. Let's face it, in S6 he'd rather summon a demon to work out his mariage anxieties then talk to his friends (although it might be argued that he's friends weren't the most approachable people back then). He obviously opened up to Cordy and got burned. Seeing how he tends to 'draw his conclusions', I'm thinking he didn't share quite as much of himself with Anya, which would have seriously influenced their relationship (longterm issues awaiting...).
You (liz) actually stated that bizarro Xander & Anya had a far more open relationship which enabled them to make their marriage work despite everything. Did bizarro Xander not date Cordy? (hey look, we made it back to Water hold me down! Yay)
excuse me if I don't wait for a possible anwser. I found a dead bug in my hair while typing this *ew, where the hell did it come from!?!* and suddenly have the urgent need to shower again.
Re: The one where; Xander tends to learn his lessons and learn em well
(Anonymous) 2005-07-28 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)There's a possibility that Cordelia was very understanding of it all when they were dating - and that was aiding in his decision to become more honest with the rest of the group. But in Xander's eyes once they'd broken up, all it turns out he'd actually done was given her ammunition to use against him should she so choose - personally I don't think that was true of Cordy, but he wouldn't be able to know the difference between what bits of information she might feel would be crossing the line to use in front of others and which bits she was simply holding back to use at a later date.
And when looking at that in regards to how he interacted with the others; Xander and Buffy often had very verbal disagreements when they had strong differing opinions on subjects, and he wasn't as close to Willow as he had been prior to the fluke... he might have seen the possibility that both of these people could also turn against him if things didn't work out as he might have wanted them too, and as a result for the rest of season 3 doesn't feel that he is as comfortable with the idea of sharing that he seemed to be earlier in the year when life did seem to be going his way. (I can't remember enough of the season offhand (even to really remember him doing any of the sharing), but did it seem apparent that he was sharing for earlier parts of the season, and then drifted off as Cordelia was the one providing information once they'd broken up..?)
Mike C
(continued in second response)
Re: The one where; Xander tends to learn his lessons and learn em well
(Anonymous) 2005-07-28 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)To me it seems he's 'learned his lesson' and from then on tries to deal with is problems on his own. Let's face it, in S6 he'd rather summon a demon to work out his mariage anxieties then talk to his friends (although it might be argued that he's friends weren't the most approachable people back then). He obviously opened up to Cordy and got burned. Seeing how he tends to 'draw his conclusions', I'm thinking he didn't share quite as much of himself with Anya, which would have seriously influenced their relationship (longterm issues awaiting...).
There's also the possibility that he did tell Anya as much as Cordelia (if not more), he and Anya did have a sexual relationship which probably meant she was over at his house (basement) far more often than Cordelia was. She might have seen a lot of interaction between Xander and his parents first hand... and we definitely got the impression that she was used to the sounds of them shouting coming from upstairs to be a regular occurence. The difference is that Anya was a very different person than Cordelia... last time she was human it would have been very different family situations (I can't say I've ever researched how people lived in 8th century (I'm assuming the country) Norse villages - but 'in their parent's basements' wouldn't have been on the list), and add that to the fact that she was newly human and had a tendency to be brutally blunt when it came to things she either didn't understand or had forgotten.
I can see Anya as being curious as to why he doesn't just leave if he doesn't like living there.
(Anya: Why stay here then..? You could give part of your hard-earned money to a complete stranger in order for them to let you live in their building instead... and that way, you could get a better room, preferably with a real window and a bigger bathroom. As an added bonus, you would also get the right to complain about any of your new neighbours if they made as much noise as your current ones do. The only people who live with their parents are either very tiny, or they are the truly unfortunate ones who cannot afford to live elsewhere... I saw some others on a chat-show that also said they lived at home but that seemed due to their social incompetence, and I don't think your Babylon 5 collection fully gives you that excuse.)
So it may be that he had confided in Anya, but she wouldn't have been able to offer much in the way of advice other than the truly practical basis of leaving - essentially coming up with a solution, but never actually understanding the basis of his complaint.
Anyway, sharing something with another person about a third party (especially someone they have no real attachments to) is very different with discussing problems you and they may be having. If he was having doubts (whether about the possible future of their relationship or the specifics of the marriage), the question lies in why he wasn't speaking to any of the others about it... and the most obvious response would be that in season 6 they were all too busy dealing with their own crap to provide any real support for other people's.
Mike C
Re: The one where; Xander tends to learn his lessons and learn em well
Definetly agree with that, not to mention some of your other points (the Anya ones, etc.) Buffy in particular was barely functioning, though I don't quite recall how much the others picked up on that.
You're also right that after the fluke incident the group dynamic changed again. He lost some of his closeness with Willow. Buffy was being all akward in the middle and Cordy was suddenly the enemy. Plus of course things started to heat up again with the big bad. I can't see Xander really putting his own needs first once everything started going down.
As for the 'sharing'. Let's face it, they were really just throwaway comments, that in my mind at least, he was putting out there to see if anyone would respond to them.
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It seems to me that while Xander is aware of what he is like as a momentary being, he doesn't think of himself as a developing entity. He's good at the "what" he is, but not so much the "why"; I think that is at the core of the Xander/ AlternaXander disconnect, especially since AlternaXander lacks the experiences which have let Xander get better at seeing the "why" of his behavior.
Which gets down to the paradox of his behavior as part of a group. He needs to be in a group; he ends up as the implicit leader of the group quite often, but when the chips are down identifies himself/ is identified as others as the Zeppo; he gains a feeling of control by keeping parts of his own experience from the group as often as he does so by trying to control other members' behavior (thinking here, as a simple instance, of his behavior about the engagement). There's a constant tension between group identification and personal distancing which I found really interesting to think about, even if it much of it didn't get into the story I wrote.
So, yeah, more WHMD soon? That is a very good thing, indeed.
Now, maybe I can go figure out what the heck is supposed to be happening in the next chapter of my oven fic.
Julia, oh, dear.
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Sadly, one of the traits I most identify with (says the girl who drives a stick shift because an automatic doesn't give me enough control over the car).
The whole window-fixing thing does crack me up. I'm still mystified by people who say "Buffy relegated Xander to fixing the windows in S7." Aside from the fact we never hear Buffy actually asking Xander to do that, I just see fixing the window as such as Xander thing to do.
World spinning out of control? Vampire you hate back in town and you can't do anything about it? Watcher's Council blow up? Scared Potentials preventing you from sleeping? Andrew driving you nuts? Friends cracking up from the strain? Ex-fiance wavering from wanting to kill you to wanting to have sex with you? The world's biggest baddest evil is making its big move?
What are you going to do?
FIX THE WINDOW! Because, damnit, it's the one thing you know you can do right every single time! And not just fix the window, but fix it exactly like it was before, even though you know a picture window is not such a hot idea, given how many times it broke in the past three months alone.
Sorry. Sure I was annoyed about it during the first airing of S7, but looking back, it really is totally in Xander's character to start obsessively focusing on the little things he can do something about while the world spins out of control around him.
And yeah, his control freak-y nature did come out in some pretty negative ways, especially in the way Xander lashed out when he got frustrated with people because they weren't acting the way he thought they should act. At least he's now got the handyman mojo to at least channel some of that control freak-y energy, because god knows the poor boy needs it. *pats Xander*
And I agree with you 100 percent. Xander's growth (at least how I write him) is a "fits-and-starts" thing. He tends to take a bunch of steps forward, and then he gets knocked on his ass. But the thing I liked about his character in canon is he'd try to get back up again (albeit at times with a certain amount of flailing, as in the case of Anya) and keep battling on.
And (*blush*) thank you for your kind words on my take on Xander. In my case, I tend to work with his faults more than his strengths, since, as I said above, that's what makes him interesting to me. Even in canon he's Mr. Contradiction-in-Terms. On the one hand, he's the heart of the group, but on the other, he can be one of its most devisive members. On one hand, he tries to be the peacemaker, but on the other, when his temper blows, he causes even more problems. The sad thing is, his faults really are very human and there's nothing tragic about them (although they can lead to tragic consequences since he hangs with supernatural people).
It's very much the same reason I've seen people who write Spike really well tend to give, which probably isn't all that strange, when you think about it. In some ways, the two characters do have a similar set of faults, but have a completely different set of strengths.
I agree that writing Xander in-a-group vs. the Xander who on some level really doesn't give himself over completely to anyone (control issues!) is a tricky line to walk. You don't want to make him a complete sheep, but at the same time, you don't want him hanging around the edges being useless-boy. At least, you don't if he's one of your main characters. I'm a big fan of authors who send characters they don't like "out of town on a bus" rather than write them badly or bash them. So I don't really resent it when authors don't like Xander do him that favor.
The sad thing is, what Xander needs more than anything is someone who'll call him on his shit. And the Scoobs? Not really big on doing that to each other unless things have reached the breaking point. So in that sense, both Anya and Spike were right about them.
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What isn't always clear about control freaks is how often they try to control situations by forcing other people to make the important decisions, thereby skipping the responsibility if things go wrong; like OCD people of the "Clutterer/Collector" sort they defy our expectations of what the label means.
Being "the guy that fixes the windows" gives Xander control over things which are relatively easy to control, where the rules are clear and the measurements unambiguous. You're spot on contrasting that with the way Buffy relates to Spike in s7, and even more strongly, I think, in agreeing to take Dawn away; both of those are "tell me what to do" situations where he doesn't have to accept blame when the situation goes wrong.
Julia, having read comments below about COA behavior, and thinking about some very Xander like COAs of my near affines
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(Anonymous) 2005-07-27 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)Which fits of his begrudging acceptance of Angel, Oz and Riley. Once Riley 'accepts his place' as Buffy's second, Xander seems to like him just fine. Similarly, once Oz is clearly not a threat to the pecking order of Buffy > Willow > everyone else, he seems to regard him as a friend.
[quote] I honestly don't think Xander wants to be the alpha — although he does want to be recognized for what he does contribute to the pack. I think it boils down to the fact that he doesn't really think that the extra perks of being one of the alphas is worth the headache. [/quote]
I see this as a self-esteem issue. I don't think he trusts himself to be in charge, or values his own contributions enough. This could be from a lifetime having his every failure, academic, social or otherwise, rubbed in his face by parents, teachers and Cordelias, or just his own nature. Being surrounded with such extraordinary people, whether extraordinarily strong, smart or popular, probably didn't help with his self-esteem.
[quote] Although, I wonder how much of it is because he doesn't think his problems are as important as, say, Buffy's or Willow's? [/quote]
Yeah, that's my view. He's the one who fixes the windows. They are the big guns who save the world. He may have saved the world, and Buffy, a time or two himself (more than Willow, by a landslide), but he still sees her as more 'valuable' or useful than himself.
I think it hurts him to see them upset even more so than it hurts him to be upset. His parental situation, and school outcast status, IMO, has hardened him to his own distress, to where it is almost more of an annoying fact of life than something to cry about. He's learned all his life that there's nothing he can do about his own shortcomings, his own 'stupidity,' his own whatever, just take the abusive comments and not show weakness. But when it's Willow crying, he can do something about it.
I'm almost getting a Silence of the Lambs vibe here. "If I can just save this one, maybe it will be enough, maybe it will make a difference..." He doesn't feel that he can do anything about his own problems, but maybe he can help someone else, and that will have to be enough.
Set
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Heh. I never pictured a Silence of the Lambs scenario, but you totally have a point there. And that does tie into the self-esteem issues that Xander has.
As for the contribution thing: tying into the self-esteem issues, Xander might view those things a fluke or "just part of the job." On a day-to-day basis, he isn't entirely wrong. Willow is more valuable in some circumstances for her intelligence, skills with magic, and ability to research.
The problem with Xander is that what he contributes is amorphus and not easily quantified, like Buffy, Giles, Willow, or even Dawn or Spike. So it's almost hard to point to something and say, "Xander consistently fills this concrete role." Being "the heart" is not necessarily a concrete role, especially when "the heart" is in distress and not exactly sharing about what's bugging him.
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Certain common traits were found in COAs without coping problems:
There were also other traits common to both coping and non-coping COAs:
(Please see the summary I linked to above for all citations.)
Damn, doesn't a lot of that sound like Xander? And more than just that, knowing what Xander needs to be a fully-functional person (as in, one without "coping problems") helps to explain why the changes between our Xander and AlternaXander are as pronounced as they are. For instance, it's pretty obvious that our Xander operates best when he's getting positive attention from others. But once you realize just how important that attention is to Xander's mental balance, it makes more sense that AlternaXander would cut ties and go build a new life with the one person giving him that positive attention. Turning his back on saving the world, or even just saving lives, only really makes sense for AlternaXander when we realize that he probably knew (at least subconsciously) that staying would have tipped him into the group of COAs with "coping problems." No sense in staying behind and helping to save the world if it you're going to be too damaged to be of help anyway.
Also, the tendency of both Xander and AlternaXander to handle things themselves ties in to their belief in self-help. And when I say handle things themselves, I don't just mean actions like AlternaXander's vamp hunting (which also can be seen as being driven by his need to overcome his feeling of a lack of control over his environment). You see signs of the importance of self-help for Xander all the way back to his insistence on going with Buffy to try to save Jessie. You don't let others do things, you do them yourself. Not necessarily by yourself, mind you, but you don't sit back and do nothing.
I've already gone on too long. Suffice it to say that this insightful discussion about how Xander came to be Xander, along with the brief research I did, makes AlternaXander a more believable possibility for me now. And I'm really, really looking forward to these promised chapters from his point of view, so I can see if my impressions of AlternaXander's motivations hold true.
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You sure you haven't been breaking into my apartment during the day?
Seriously though, if you do look at Xander as an adult child of alcolic parents, it does help a lot with his characterization. I'd even say canon does come at least pretty close to that. And I agree that high school Xander is a walking textbook of not very good coping skills, but I'd argue that by S7 he was coping (with a few hiccups along the way).
So, yeah, you're pretty dead-on where alternaXander is coming from in Water. Xander, at least we're somewhat lead to believe, reached some closure when he walked onto Kingman's Bluff and when he buried the hatchet with Anya. AlternaXander never had any of that closure.
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What I have done, though, is set up a psychic link that lets me tap in to your thoughts at will. That's all.
I tried to set the link up so it only kicks in when you're thinking about fanfiction, but I don't have all the bugs out yet. Oh, by the way, what's up with your fascination with condiments? Actually, I don't want to know. Pretend I never asked.
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(Anonymous) 2005-07-28 05:46 am (UTC)(link)This is just fascinating, because I've had an alcoholic parent, and really, the idea one takes away from that is that you can't really depend on anyone other than yourself, since the 'adults' are unreliable (at best) and unpredictable (at worst).
Both Xander and Faith seem to have gotten this notion.
Interesting, the notion of otherXander making the choice to leave the 'friends' that are no longer making him feel welcome, to be with the women who is giving him some sense of worth. Given this logic, it would seem likely that if Xander and Cordelia had not broken up, he would have left with her for L.A. at the end of season three.
Ironically, Willow has also picked up a similar notion, that she has to do everything and make all the grown-up choices, because her absentee parents put her in a similar place, prompted to disregard their rarely-exerted 'authority' and just do whatever she thinks is right, regardless of their vague and useless attempts at setting guidelines for her.
Ditto Buffy, with an absent father who's hardly a role-model, and a mother who's initial solution to unwelcome information is scotch and denial, followed by a foot-stomping tantrum when the scotch and denial are no longer doing the trick...
Final analysis? Joss has parental issues, Joss has parental issues! ["What? Freud would have said the same thing! Only he might not have done the little dance..."]
Set
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(Anonymous) 2005-07-29 12:45 am (UTC)(link)JG
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Now that Joss has been a Dad for a few years, I'm wondering if his next few projects are going to have characters with better parents, but bastards for grandparents. (Heh.)
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Glad you liked.
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One thing that really struck me in this was Xander's view of alternaXander and vice versa. It's interesting that you were talking about how Xander sees himself--that he sees the weaknesses but not the strengths--but didn't really follow through with how that connects to how he sees alternaXander. I'd say that he also notices the faults but not necessarily the strengths of his double (one exception is that Xander has recognized alternaXander's woodworking ability, and I hope this could maybe be something you pursue with our Xander later on), and I think that might have something to do with how alternaXander treats him in turn. After a lifetime without the encouragement that Xander has received from the Scoobs, I'd imagine alternaXander would be more insecure and sensitive to criticism than Xander. He resents the way Xander passes judgement on his life and his choices, and that plus the lack of help Xander offers (as I'm sure he sees it) must remind him of the way he was treated back in Sunnydale. While Xander sees it as criticizing himself, in a way, alternaXander feels like Xander is just another person in a long list who doesn't care about him and thinks he isn't good enough. I don't know if you'd agree with me (since they are your creations), but I am looking forward to seeing the world from inside alternaXander's head. His motivations have been a bit fuzzy to me until now, and I'm very curious.
Anyway, in conclusion, thanks for the babbling. I enjoyed it. As for your heat-stricken self, one thing always helped cool me down (when playing soccer tournaments in 102-degree weather, for example). Try taking a bunch of rags and soaking them in ice water (if you let the water sit in the freezer a while before adding the ice, that's even better), then draping one over the top of your head and swiping others over pressure points (ears, wrists, insides of the elbows, over the carotid, the back of the neck, and the tops of the thighs are best). Change out the rags for others that have been soaking once they start warming up. Water changes body temperature ten times faster than air of the same temperature, so you'll get wet, but it feels great and cools you down quickly.
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Which is why Faith works so well as a means to provide that insight, especially post-Chosen. My own personal fanwank is when she rejoined the Scoobs in S7 it was a new beginning, she tried very hard not carry over the emotions and interactions of the past. Although I've only seen S7 twice and haven't as yet swallowed my angst enough to buy it, so I could be wrong.
Your post and the other wonderful comments? Are so going into my memories. I'm filled with fandom love.
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I also really liked the idea that, "the Scoobs can be extraordinarly and thoughtlessly cruel to one another, but it's in a way that shows that they take each other somewhat for granted. They're occassionally nasty to each other because they can. They know (at least up until Giles takes off during S6) that no one is going anywhere." Because it makes a lot of sense though i hadn't thought of it quite like that before.
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I guess I can see now how hard it's going to be to get yourself back in that mindset some three years after the time when the story was eating away at you so much you were losing sleep trying to pour it out. I still hold out hope you'll finish it, of course. But I was wondering if a particular logjam stopped you on that story, and if so what it was. Or if it was just "Real Life."
I don't know if you'll find this at all helpful, but I recently stumbled across this community, devoted to churning out new chapters of unfinished/ stalled WIPs in a ficathon type environment, with an eye to finishing them. I scored a moral victory this month-- didn't make the masterlist because my betas have real lives too and haven't got to it yet, but I did submit to beta in plenty of time and had technically a new chapter written by the deadline.
Anyway, happy 4th, kill no tourists if you can help it, and thanks for sharing all your writing over these many years.