liz_marcs | Drive-by post: Outing myself

If it makes you feel better, I like Eve.

See? I didn't dislike Eve either. (Yes, yes, my corner is cold and lonely indeed.)

What it boiled down to was that Eve was not-Lilah, in the same way that Kennedy was not-Tara, Riley was not-Angel, and Kate was not-Buffy.

Now, you can dislike the way Staphanie Romanov was let go and the reasons for it. (According to her, she knew he number was up when she criticized a re-write of one of her scenes as not being as good as the original and found out she had criticized the Great Joss.) That's not Eve's problem. Sure, the actress wasn't the greatest, but I liked the character just fine.

ah, you know, I didn't realize that's why Stephanie Romanov left. What a shame, because she was a damn fine actress.

But right, that's not Eve's (or Sarah Thompson's) fault. I don't think she was that bad an actress, actually -- I think they weren't quite sure where they wanted to take the character, and went back and forth with her traits just to have her serve an organizational-narrative function, making her contradictory when it suited their purposes.

For Eve and Thompson, I really liked the period after Lindsey disappeared, and she went into hiding. There was some nice work there.

And the character -- so much more could have been done there, writing wise. I'm very curious about her.

Is that the reason Stephanie Romanov left? If so, forcing her to leave seems really petty and childish. Not to mention that having her around during Season Five would have been very interesting.

Well, according to rumors "petty" and "childish" are Joss' middle names.

Does that make Andrew "not-Xander"? Or is there more to the Andrew hate? Part of why I couldn't stand the twerp was the feeling that he was supposed to be a Spike-friendly, non-threatening replacement for Xander in the role of comic relief, except that a) Xander was still there, and b) after Him or so, ME weren't even trying to figure out what Xander's role/place was. Which leads to the question of how long was the plan to kill Xander in place before Joss changed his mind?

I loved Kennedy, especially when she was smarting off to a whiny Potential. After Buffy, it was refreshing to see someone who *wanted* to be a Slayer. Plus her face reminds me of Jenny Calender. That's a look I love. Also, not a huge Tara fan, so I didn't feel any hate for her replacing St. Drug-Enabler.

Eve? Eh. Suffered seriously from not-being-Lilah. Lilah was incredibly snarky and fun and, oh yeah, drop-dead gorgeous. Eve wasn't any of those things, sounding vaguely bitchy and being way too skinny and young-looking to be attractive to those of us who like consenting adults.

The backstage rumor-mongering is always a hoot. *I* heard that Stephanie Romanov was 'let go' because her behind-the-scenes snuggling with David Boreanaz was ruining his marriage.

As for Andrew, yes, there are not enough exploding suns to convey the hate. I don't care if he took away from Xander. The fact that he sucked intensely is enough to earn my ire. I don't like watching people embarrass themselves, it makes me uncomfortable (the scene in Him, where Dawn is doing the cheerleader routine about RJ? I have to *leave the room,* I kid you not!). Every time Andrew opens his mouth I cringe and feel bad for the actor, that he had to play this caricature.

Andrew on Buffy, to me, is like watching an episode of M.A.S.H. and suddenly *Urkel* wanders into the tent and steals all the screetime away from Hawkeye and Winchester's witty repartess with lame klutz routines.

Andrew is one of those characters who belongs on some lame short-lived UPN shows with a laugh track... Oh *snap!*

I know you're a guy and all but I have to ask, "Michele? Is that you?"

Seriously, I have a friend who who had to do the exact same thing in Him. She can't watch anything where people embarrass themselves, even if it's in fiction.

[quote] I know you're a guy and all but I have to ask, "Michele? Is that you?" [/quote]

I've been called worse. :)

[quote] Seriously, I have a friend who who had to do the exact same thing in Him. She can't watch anything where people embarrass themselves, even if it's in fiction. [/quote]

Oh yeah, you should see me squirm during the American Pie movies when the main character is caught with his hand glued down his shorts or whatever. I'm hopeless.

I like Xander, and I also am a big Lorne fan. I don't see anything wrong with liking Kennedy. She was fine, and a helluva better character than Andrew will ever be.

I do think it was a little too soon for Willow to be getting into a relationship (Tara had died just months before AFAIK), but that has a lot less to do with Kennedy and a lot more to do with Willow.

*nods* Agreed, 100% on Kennedy.

that has a lot less to do with Kennedy and a lot more to do with Willow.

A. Men.

I called Kennedy "baby Faith" -- I liked the actress OK, but not so much the way she was written/directed. (OK, I fully admit I wanted Faith/Willow in S7. Sigh.) Butyeah, that seemed more like an instance of the char being misused than a bad char, if you know what I mean.

That's how I felt. I never saw Kennedy as anything but a watered-down version of Faith.

*shrug* To each their own.

you get a hug from me.... Faith is so overlooked the last season and I was so overjoyed that they brought her back. She should have taken the spin-off if it was offered...

Lol. I don't mind Kennedy. I adore Andrew and Lorne. I felt sorry for Eve...she was led astray be the devastating charm of Lindsey. :p Get your claws out ready in case there's a cat fight.

See, your reasons for loathing andrew are exactly the reasons I loathe kennedy. My biggest reason, though, above all else, was that she was all wrong for willow. Now, was that casting? or writing? or directorial? or chemistry? Who knows. I'm not blaming any one thing, because there are too many things to point at. I liked her in theory -- I think someone that forthright could be good for willow and I liked harkening to the little rich girl ideal. That was fine. And I loved the actress, even if I thought she was miserable in the roll.

It just felt forced. Andrew doesn't to me *shrug*

Also, expecting understanding from twop boards is like praying for the sky to turn bright red with polka-dots in emerald green :D

Wow. ((is impressed))

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din, as my dad used to say.

((hands you bullshit-proof flame-retardant impermasuit))

I've not spent more than a few cumulative minutes on TWOP, but I'm starting to think more and more that that's a good thing..

I was never a big fan of Kennedy when I first watched S7 (I came to the series entirely through DVDs, though, if that makes any difference), mostly because I was still clinging to the Willow/Tara relationship a little bit and didn't feel like Kennedy was a worthy folow up. (Also, young! hello!) I thought she was a total brat.

But the more I go back and look at it the more I appreciate the Willow/Kennedy dynamic, they really are pretty romantic with each other when you get down to brass tacks about it.

Also, go you for the bravery factor - I always lie pretty low about my BtVS likes/dislikes (I'm a Riley sympathizer - though not an OTP B/R-er by any means - and also a general fan of Season 5-7.) You get major gold stars in my book!

I liked Kennedy, she was feisty.

From: SenorTact

To be honest, I never understood the Kennedy hate. I've always thought that she just suffered from a bad case of not-Tara the same way that Reilly died from a bout of not-Angel.

Of course, what do I know? There are characters that I am indifferent to (Andrew and Tara) and characters that I feel are unnecessary (Robin and Sam), but none that I actively dislike (rage induced by Buffy's speech in 'Selfless' aside) I just have a hard time getting the bashing of imaginary people (shrug)

I just have a hard time getting the bashing of imaginary people (shrug)

Exactly. I'm more known of defending the characters than actually bashing them.

Don't worry, so far everything is good there. :)

What do you think about this?

Xander is a leader in the Slayers headquarters in Scotland.

I liked Kennedy, too. I was a big fan of Willow/Tara, but I didn't hate Kennedy for that reason.

And I hated Andrew. I resented him for taking away Xander-time, Willow-time, etc. I hated the "oh, look, he's cute and funny, he must be good!" crammed down my throat. Ugh.

Wow, you are a brave person!

I never had particularly strong feelings either way re: Kennedy.

My terrible confession; I liked Andrew. I mean I get the taking away time from Willow & Xander etc. (though I blame the whole Spike arc for that more), but that's not Andrew's fault. I think he fulfills the role of a Fool rather well; not the typical wise Fool, or only sometimes accidentally so, but still providing... if you like that outsider's perspective on the Scoobies. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have rather had more Xander and Willow time, but hey.

Though I get what you mean about ME trying too hard to make us like/forgive him. I think your Andrew (as in Padwan etc.) works better in that way, in that he still plays the Fool role, but is also clearly an utter twat.

I like Kennedy too.

You'll probably stir up a debate on TWoP that will last for days, only to fade when everyone gets tired of making their individual argument over and over again.

I'm really have no opinion about Kennedy, however, my hatred of Andrew knows no borders. I confess that the only characters I gave a rat's ass about in season seven were Xander, Anya, and surprisingly, Dawn. (And I'm sure my Dawn-loving corner is pretty lonely, too.)

Never disliked Kennedy. And I never thought she took away much screentime from the others either. And that what she (her big mouth to Buffy) was worth watching. I just thought it went all way too fast with her.

At least your able to *write* Andrew. I can't. When K suggested him as a walk on character my objection was rather ... forceful. :>

I agree with you that Kennedy was actually a good character. Admittedly, when I first watched season 7, she struck me as a sort of pushy distraction much as all the potentials did, but re-watching episodes like the "Killer in Me" have given me a whole new appreciation for her. On the other hand, my loathing of Andrew continues unabated. As part of the Trio he did evil that he remained consistently unapologetic for, he killed his supposedly best friend and, his tears at the seal not with standing, his turn to the light side of the force seemed mostly about fitting in with the cool kids than any actual moral shift. Moreover, he was clearly meant to be a sort of Xander replacement without any of Xander's charm, loyalty or social redeeming value.

Hmm. I didn’t like Kennedy myself — though I didn’t actively hate her, either — but I’m always willing to check out someone else’s viewpoint.

Problem is, you don’t actually say why. You admit to liking Kennedy, and some of your later comments explain why you’ve never been big on character-hate (with which stance I generally agree), but you never explain why you would like Kennedy. This puzzles me.

The people who felt that she (and, in a related example, Eve) were shoved at the viewer without adequate preparation or justification — i.e., this is what we’re giving you, so you’ll take it and like it — cover most of my objections to Kennedy. That, and the writing of the character didn’t make her particularly likable. I respected her energy and initiative, but there wasn’t anything to really recommend her to me. In fact, to my memory, the closest she came to a genuinely human moment was when she briefly withdrew after Willow sucked out some of her energy for emergency power.

I’m not saying you’re wrong to like the character. I just still don’t know why, and I want to. Your reasoning is usually worth listening to, and I don’t feel that we really got the benefit of it this time.

Did you, perhaps, go into more detail at TWoP? And if so, is there a direct link?

Used to have an icon. "Kennedy Fan. Some Apologies." Don't know where it is.

I don't hate her. As you know. I wrote "Eyeless" with her. I don't know if I'd play with her if I didn't think I had to. But I don't hate her.

~~There's nothing redeeming about Andrew.~~

We'll keep each other company in the Special Hell.

So you like Kennedy.
So what? There are different tastes, and for one am damn thankful for that.

Take care. And didn't Xanderlike write a K/X-fic over at FF.net?

Yo Liz,

have you checked out: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1551286/20070131/index.jhtml

Check Buffy in first comic. There's Xander, a leader at central command. No, that in itself is interesting. But what really got my attention was his phrase: five by five :)

Until this comment did not realise they had added more panels since yesterday.

Really interesting panel.

Surely Joss couldn't be unaware that that phrase has very definite conotations in Buffy. Who is Xander hanging with?

Personally think he is probably just using it as intended in that context. To think otherwise would force me to start loving what he is doing in S8. Not willing to risk that yet. :-)

Thanks for the pointer.

You think that's bad, try being a Riley fan. I think there are three of us...

Ummm.... I like Riley.

Aye well... I too never got the Riley hate, hell I thought he was one of the healthiest partner's Buffy ever had in the series. He wasn't a Vampire, he could go out in the sunlight and be a part of Buffy's life, indeed he was first attracted to Buffy rather than the Slayer. I liked Riley, I didn't mind the relationship ending because that was Buffy where love never lasted, but I liked Riley.

I also Liked Ken, I am indifferent to Andrew, he didn't really do much of anything, and seemed to be a walking collection of sterotypes, seriously he was a walking bag of cliches, and oh, it seems I might not be indifferent to Andrew after all! I may actually hate the guy. Strange, I never noticed that till I started writing this...

Skelron

I always thought that Kennedy was a potentially interesting character who should either have got more time than she did so as to fill her out, or should not have been there. Still, the fact that she was a sort of FaithLite crossed with CordyLite made Willow's interest in her fascinating, since she was an amalgam of the two women Willow disliked most in her social circle. I also liked the idea of an obsessive super-achiever Potential with real money behind her.

Like one or two other characters, my impression is that she has got a fairer deal in fic than she did in the show or comments on the show at the time.

Kennedy will never be popular because she's the "living" incarnation of the idea that it is possible to get over your One True Love dying or otherwise leaving your life, which is of course something the average fanboy / girl findss very hard to believe. The fact that she's actually Willow's 4th One True Love (if you include Xander) and that Willow makes a none-too-subtle pass at Fred after she is involved with Kennedy seems to escape their attention.

I've tried to write her sympathetically, which to me is more interesting than savaging her, and it's actually pretty easy - she's brave, she saves Willow's life at the risk of her own fairly early in the relationship, and she gives the impression of being someone who would be prepared to criticize Willow to her face if necessary, which is more than you can say for most of the scoobies.

Having said that, Willow / Faith would have been interesting, and was what I was hoping for in S7. But Willow / Kennedy worked OK.

Still another Kennedy liker here.... and in totaly agreement of why they bashed her, the only possible reason being she was thought of as replacing Tara. There was nothingn wrong with her persona of questioning authority.

Andrew was nothing but comic releaf.. plain and simple... and a pain in the butt....

And having been a faith fan, from the moment she walked into Sunnydale, what more can I say. Though with her background, as was brought up here earlier, the mixture of poor girl Faith and rich girl Kennedy, might have made a nice couple too.

I like Kennedy. I loath Andrew. I'd love to see a fic where Andrew gets slugged by someone. (extra points if it's Kennedy. Double extra if it's Xander) Hee.

I don't hate Kennedy. I actually kinda like her a little. I just hate Willow/Kennedy.

Kennedy suffered from two things: being regarded by Joss as, and resented by the W/T fans for being, the "replacement" for Tara so soon, and being lumped in with all the extra characters thrown into the show in its last season and diluting time and story many felt should have been spent on the established charatcters. (It didn't help that most of the extra characters, with the possible exception of Robin, just didn't inspire the audiene to care about them.)

I still have yet to watch s7, so I can't comment directly on Kennedy. But I seriously don't get why some fans feel that everyone MUST have the same opinions!

Even though I wrote the ultimate Kennedy-bashing fic ("Crocodile Rock") I don't have anything against her (the fic was a request fic) and she showed in "The Killer In Me" that she has a lot going for her. And, when I write her as having broken up with Willow ("Come As You Are", "Life, Resumed", and "Should Auld Acquaintance Be Forgot?") it's always described as being mainly down to Willow.

Kennedy was IMO the second-best new character introduced in S7 - but she's totally eclipsed by Vi!

"Whom I hate with the passion of a thousand fire-y nuns"

Snap!!! Although when I posted about disliking him I got some very odd reactions. Like how could I not like him he is so funny and how can you disagree with the JOSS :-0

Strangely I always thought AH had much more chemistry with Iyari than with Amber. Also felt a complete lack of chem in those scenes. But different people have different reactions.

Plus she has a bit of get up and go. Is confident and caring. Sure she is a little Faith like like a mini faith. I mean she sends the others back to look for her in S7 so in S8 could see respect and friendship there. She has that minus Willow's controlling insecurity and ability to shrug off murder.

uhm... so?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude or anythiung, especially since I don't often comment on anything on this LJ except for fic, but I really don't get why this would be such a big deal. Or maybe I do, but it makes me sad, so I just like to think I don't. The point is that I just don't care and sometimes I have trouble understanding why other people care.

I like Kennedy, actually, I do think there's a little of both Faith and Cordelia characxters in her, and I kinda love that, but it's not such a big deal, overall, I think. I don't think outing oneself as a Kennedy-liking person should even be a concept. Maybe I'm silly, you know, dreaming bout a happy fandom in which everyone can say they like whatever character and not being opressed or whatever because of it, but I find both the bashing of characters and the bashing of people who like certain characters to be quite stupid.

And by the way, while I am first and most a Faith fan [see icon!], I like Faith/Giles. I bet my corner of fandom is way lonelier than yours.

The funny thing is, I think I would have liked Kennedy a lot if they hadn't paired her with Willow. She's a bad match for Willow. Look at Oz and Tara. Of course, they're very different but they both have that still waters run deep thing going for them. They grounded Willow in a way Kennedy never could.

Andrew, on the other hand, is a character who should be used sparingly and was spotlighted like he was a main character suddenly. Grumble, grumble, gripe.

I'm another one who didn't mind Kennedy too much, especially once she admitted she was a bit of a brat. But I didn't like her with Willow: the way she just breezed in to the Summers household and immediately assumed that Willow would be interested because she was gay - all in one episode! - I think it all went far too fast. I know they had time constraints due to it being the last season, but it just didn't feel natural to me.

As for Andrew, he was just about bearable in season 6, but bringing him back and making him a main character in season 7 was a terrible decision. He's so infantile, and so very unfunny. And has a really annoying whiny voice.

(By the way, I have friended you, Liz. Hope that's OK. Been a fan a long time but only just got my own LJ.)

Drive-by post: Outing myself

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Fatel Illness?

Re: Fatel Illness?

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