liz_marcs | FanLib: 101 Reasons to Stay Away

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FanLib: 101 Reasons to Stay Away

Back in March, I was made aware of FanLib when

entrenous88 was dinged with an "invite" to join the site. I was dinged about a week later.

Reading the ToS of FanLib, I figured that I had to be seeing things. It was that bad, and that unfair to fanfic writers. If anything, it looked like a con.

entrenous88 graciously gut-checked me and backed up the itchy feeling I had about the whole thing.

Let's just say I was relieved that I wasn't the only one who was just a leeetle leery about this.

Then I just let it drop. I wasn't interested. The site looked like it was nothing more than a fraud at best, or a way to bilk fanfic writers out of money at worst.

Guess what?

FanLib falls into the "at worst" category. While Buffy-related fanfiction wank was eating my corner of LJ and mold allergies were eating my brain, FanLib officially opened its doors.

Somehow, I don't think FanLib was expecting a round of raspberries and Bronx cheers from the very people they hoped to scam free content out of, do you?

Funnily enough, that's exactly what happened. Fractious fandom suddenly turned into the United Federation of Fandom Universes and gave FanLib the big-ol' stink-eye.

Then they started talking and spreading the news. Being writers and readers, that means there were raging discussions about FanLib, with people claiming to be associated with the site making comments in people's journals.

If these people are actually "employees" of FanLib, they seriously need to go to charm school...or at least figure out who they're talking to. Most fanfic writers are not teeny-booper fanbrats, so stop talking to us like we are.

I was going to put together something myself, but thanks to FandomWank and Fanthropology I don't have to do damn thing.

(Be sure to read the self-identified FanLib gnomes defending the company on Fanthropology. Note that the really tough questions about who's making money, copyright issues, and the question of who actually owns the fic that gets put on the site are left unanswered. Also note from the comments that it's blindingly clear that FanLib did almost zero market research on fanfic writers.)

To get up to speed on the whole FanLib scam (and yes, it is a scam — I don't care how many legit backers they have):

icarusancalion has outlined the primary problems with FanLib in a most excellent article. Be sure to read the comments, too.

stewardess has a link-o-rama of opinions and discussions around LJ. Comments on this and all posts are also very much worth the read.

Yes, it'll take several hours to read through (possibly several days). However, I urge you all to read through everything and decide for yourselves.

Let's make something clear: While this is certainly the most aggressive attempt I've ever seen to make money off the backs of fanfiction writers, you can be absolutely certain — with the same certainty that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west — that it most definitely won't be the last.

ETA:

ladycat777 calls out these post by

telesilla as deserving of special attention. She attempts to engage the FanLib braintrust in comments, but doesn't get anywhere. Her posts do appear on

stewardess's collection of links, but I agree that she has a take worth paying attention to.

ETA2: On the advice of

humbleminion I've removed the link to FanLib. It appears they earn ad revenue based on page hits. I've got no desire to give them money.

ETA3:

marenfic points to this excellent blog entry that excellently puts into words the problems I have with FanLib from the perspective of a woman who's both a fan and a well-educated professional.

One note of interest in the article from FeministSF

marenfic points to: One of the FanLib founders is associated with SixApart, which just so happens to own LJ. Well, well, well. That is an interesting nugget of information to consider. And I don't mean that in a good way.

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telesilla has also been attempting to establish a dialogue with the people who run this. At best, they're just giving her the run around. At worst, they're insulting our intelligence.

You know, those fandom types that keeps themselves busy by writing and metaing and doing other things that imply reading comprehension.

Just cause there's a sucker born every minute doesn't mean you're going to stumble onto a brand new cache of them.

I added the link and credited you. Yeah, I remember reading through all that meta. *headdesk*

There does seem to be this pattern that whenever people start questioning the nitty-gritty of the FAQ and ToS, the answers stop coming or start getting circular. Hunh? Right. That's trust-worthy right there.

I've added the link to

telesilla's journal and gave you credit.

You should also check out

cleolinda's latest linkspam post, it has links to some other fanlib BS.

Cleolinda linked to something already in

stewardess's collection (and I think

stewardess reciprocated), but thanks for throwing the source out there.

But, yeah, it smells like BS, doesn't it?

Having had 4 stories published, I've never come close to a contract that is anything like as draconian as the ones described, what a rip-off. Thanks for the head's up.

Also, as is pointed out, if people start making money off fan fiction, what in the hell are the people who own the characters involved going to do about it?

Someone said: "Just wait until they get that first underage Harry/Dumbledoor/Grissom CSI/HP crossover PWP!"

It's kind of covered in the ToS actually. Essentially, FanLib can do whatever it wants with the content, up to and including republish the work for profit. In return, the fan writer gets...nothing. Not even legal protection if the copyright owner decided to go after the writer.

In addition, rather than just removing the offending work per the copyright owner's request (which most fanfic archives would do, up to and including FF.net), FanLib reserves the right to go into the work itself and edit as they see fit.

Yeah. Draconian is right. I used to be the boss of freelance writers once upon a time, and if I presented them with a contract like this, I would've had my head removed by both my bosses and potential freelancers.

I very rarely read fanfic but I spotted the press release several weeks ago. For some reason I assumed it was a site where tv networks could get in bed with various fandoms (one of my bugbears is film and tv studios trying to compromise a fandom in order to make a profit).

Bit of an eye opener to find out what was really going on. Reminds me of those vanity publishing scams. Has anyone yet claimed "FanLib=FabFib" or am I the 4953rd person to think of that one?

Funnily enough, your impression is exactly how they're presenting themselves. It isn't until you dig into the Q&A and ToS that you realize that it's something else entirely.

The bigger issue, I think, is that clearly the site is aimed at commercial end of genre works (which it should be), and that the sight is geared to protecting existing copyrights (again, not an issue). The issue is that they are expecting fan writers to prove no-strings-attached free content that FanLib can use and edit however it sees fit, up to an including earning profit off that free content.

It's the profit part that's the real sticking point, not to mention the fact that upon putting the work up on FanLib's site, they "own" the rights to that story (unless they're challenged, in which case it, and the liability immediately reverts back to the writer).

The legal theory they're working on for FanLib has not been proven in the U.S. In other countries (i.e., Japan) copyright is interpreted differently and fanfiction isn't in quite the same grey area that it is in the U.S. and is considered semi-legit fair use.

Not too many people involved with fanfiction in the U.S. really want to push the issue, given the state of copyright law enforcement in the U.S. In the current atmosphere, I think most people know that fanfic would lose in a push-comes-to-shove context, even if the writers were making no profit off there work.

On the third front, it's pretty clear that FanLib did not do its homework. It made certain assumptions about fanfic writers that are untrue. Most of the ones I know about range from 20s to 50s, hold down professional jobs or have some kind of professional training, tend to be fairly well-educated, and are overwhelmingly women. There are even university studies in fanthropology showing this. The information actually exists and is out there.

Yet the pitch seems to be geared to: boys, young girls, and people with little life experience.

Worse, when legitimate concerns are brought up with the FanLib owners (who are all male, btw) we're treated as if were a bunch of junior high school girls who are worrying our pretty little heads over nothing. That's infuriating.

Let's just hope the next scam artist isn't taking notes and making plans. At the moment, we have the advantage that they underestimate us. Definitely need to be on guard.

FanLib isn't the first. I seem to dimly remember there was a similar archive that was trying to start up, but it was more low-key and there weren't sponsors right out of the box. I don't think it went anywhere.

FanLib definitely won't be the last. In fact, I'd be shocked if, at some point, there wasn't a better organized effort coming down the pike in 5 to 10 years that might actually work.

The issue (and I can't see a way around this sticking point), is that the legal theory FanLib (and I'd think anything similar enterprise) is trying to put forward has not been tried in the U.S. I don't see it flying, either, especially given the current state of copyright enforcement in the U.S. Hell, there are publishing houses even now trying to push "in perpetuity" contracts on new authors so that the copyright never reverts back to the writer, that is, if I understand this discussion on Making Light.

In short, I don't see how this can be done legally, and certainly I can't see it happening soon.

But you're right, the next one that comes along might be smart about it.

I've heard about those in perpertuity contracts. Some of my writer friends who are just starting their careers are very worried about them. All the more reason to have a good agent on your side.

I don't think there is a legal way to do it unless the copyright holder instigates it. Which is a slight possibility at some point. If someone ever uses that angle I'm double checking six ways from Sunday.

Thanks for all the links to an explanation of what's going on. Fascinating stuff to read, especially that one article detailing the situation. There's something oddly charming about watching the diverse and highly factionalized mass of fandom unite as one crowd of pitchfork- and torch-wielding angry villagers to storm the castle.

Heeeee! It's like from the Princess Bride: "Have fun storming the castle!"

I've added a few more links, too.

It's amazing just how unified everyone really is about this.

It is a shining, beautiful moment of unity!

Which will no doubt break down into shipping wars within another week or two, because fandom has a long memory but a short attention span. But in the meantime, beautiful.

"Think it'll work?"

"It'd take a miracle."

Excellent post, I've directed a few people this way. Thanks for summarizing and providing all the links like this.

I would also highly recommend Fanlib: Our wannabe corporate overlords for a look at what has me personally worried about Fanlib. If Fanlib can find a way to usurp an economic power of our space (on the back of our creative equity), then I fear that they will eventually succeed in what they only very thinly claim to have now-- legitimacy and permission (read: rights) from media sources.

I realize this is a very flimsy comparison, given the very different sources, but I'm going to make it (after disclaiming the heck out of it) anyway: Think about how iTunes et al. figured out how to make music downloading legal, and profitable. Now only companies that have the clout to make deals with the music industry can offer legal downloading, and anyone else gets prosecuted. Let's think about that. As soon as some company figures out how to truly economize our community, and can then begin to offer creators and owners of media output (say, Mutant Enemy) profit from an exclusivity agreement, we are shit out of luck resisting unless we want to give up our hobby.

Ack, posted before I was finished. . .

Further, if you Google "fanlib", the first several pages are exclusively press releases praising the ingenuity of the business in major online media sources that are not mashable (which I've never heard of). Yahoo Biz ran the article, Business Week ran the article, and there are pages and pages of links that speak about Fanlib as a hot start-up that practically invented fanfiction. Even the blog links, like the one to

astridv's journal, all have text that look supportive in the actual Google link (I don't know how the hell that happened!). They are going VERY VERY public with this, because they think it's something that can make a lot of people a lot of money. And those people ain't the writers.

I noticed that! I'm guessing that a chunk of those $3M went to Google, otherwise I can't explain those skewed search results. technorati.com tells a much different story...
(here via technorati btw)

I didn't want to be all conspiracy theorist about it, but I did wonder.

Thanks for the technorati mention-- I'd never heard of it, but it looks like a great tool.

Eeeee! Yes. The iTunes model is a troubling issue.

Plus, let's not forget, that all important Google placement. Let's here it for Technorati FtW! I can't begin to state how often Technorati has saved my hide both fannishly and in RL which I was on a tight deadline and needed some quick links.

What I didn't realize is that someone from SixApart (owners of LJ) is involved! ARRRRGGGHHH! That explains how some of the almost exclusively LJ people ended up getting pinged. I wonder how many people actually realized that. This makes not at all uncomfortable. Nope.

Fantastic catch. Have linked and given you credit. Thank you.

I don't know if this is a scam or not, but the whiny attitude of the apparent figurehead person turns my stomach. It seems like it's completely beyond his comprehension that his plan is meeting with hostility, and he really doesn't offer much clarification beyond the odd quote from the FAQ.

The i-tunes comparison is something to think about. I think it would kill fanfic if it became something you had to pay for. God knows, I wouldn't pay a penny for any of mine!

I'm reading his attitude as one that's pretty clueless (with a dash of sexism). I think they put all their eggs on copyright holder side of the equation, and didn't give too much thought to the community they expect to give them free content.

The other issue is that they're working on a legal theory that's never been tried in the U.S. No one, I mean, no one wants to stick their necks out for it. And since FanLib has not interest or desire in sticking their necks out for this legal theory, than why the hell should we?

The ToS and Q&A also is pretty draconian as well. There's no way anyone with any experience would agree to it.

If these people are actually "employees" of FanLib, they seriously need to go to charm school...or at least figure out who they're talking to. Most fanfic writers are not teeny-booper fanbrats, so stop talking to us like we are.

Oh man, YES! The people who allegedly work for FanLib commenting here and there have made such asses of themselves -- yes, these are NOT the people you want to give the rights of your work to.

What's weird is checking out their archive -- because I did look, after seeing some of the metafandom-linked posts -- and seeing, yes, a few names I recognized. I'm incredibly curious (and somewhat aghast) that anyone has taken them up on their offer, considering what a crappy position it puts the writers in, and what sort of endeavor (read=money-grubbing, poorly-planned, and hopelessly-doomed) they're getting involved in.

Also highly troubling is how much it's come out how dominated by men FanLib's organization is -- and how easy they thought it would be to walk into the "Girls'" party and just pick off all our good stuff without us raising so much as a peep.

What's really killing me is that there are already several studies that have been done by fanthropology programs at universities that would've given FanLib a ton of information about fanfic writers. It's out there. It exists, for Christ's sake. The fact that they marketing to fanfic writers doesn't seem to go beyond raiding the FF.net and LJ rosters for writers is mind-boggling.

I think the thing that's getting overlooked (by both sides, believe it or not) is that FanLib is, in essence, asking fanfic writers to do them a favor by providing free content. Jesus! I work in publishing! I know for a fact that content is currency! FanLib, in essence, expects people to give them content (remember, free currency!) which they can then use to make a profit.

Without even getting into the fact that FanLib proposes to make a profit off fanfiction (which is a very dark grey area in copyright law at best) based on a legal theory that's never been tried in U.S. courts, you'd think they'd give slightly more consideration to the people feeding them content beyond a t-shirt.

Now, given that FanLib is asking us to do them a favor by feeding them content, you'd think they'd actually be polite about it. But they're not. When people bring up legitimate questions, they are ignored or get some kind of rude, circular answer. It's maddening.

I don't want to even get into the whiff of sexism that I'm starting to pick up. I'd just raise my bloodpressure into the level of stroke.

As for familiar names, I know some people have registered, if only to cybersquat their names, but don't intend to send content to the site. I'm not sure that's a wise move, since it gives them some kind of "population" they can sell to potential advertisers. What's more, it might be counterproductive if, say, Universal or FOX, decides to start hunting for scalps on select properties.

Right! No, I'm with you on that. They think we're going to fuel their money-making venture, and there's really no other way to say it, because there's zero in it for us, and quite frankly, a lot to lose if litigation takes place.

Yes, they've been total asshats in responding to people. It's interesting, actually. They're having what are typically stereotyped as women's hysterical responses, while the women are asking all the very reasonable, rationally wary questions. As I said to invisionary below, I get the sense that they're thinking, "Can't you see all that we're doing for you?" In my reading, that they are ending that question in their heads with you annoying bitches is implied.

Also highly troubling is how much it's come out how dominated by men FanLib's organization is -- and how easy they thought it would be to walk into the "Girls'" party and just pick off all our good stuff without us raising so much as a peep.

If it's any comfort, there are men in fandom who aren't anything like the people running FanLib. I, for one, frankly can't believe what they're trying to do. And I find their attitude, not just toward women, but toward fans in general, fairly disturbing.

See, I know that. ^_^ Hence me getting my back up whenever the boyz get a beatin' on the TwOP boards with some broad-brush strokes.

The issue I have is that FanLib has none, zero, zip, zilch women in the upper echelons for a site that's supposedly trying to entice a part of fandom that's overwhelmingly female to provide them with free content. What's more boggling, is that we're all getting the metaphorical pat on the head and told not to worry our pretty little heads about it.

Yeah, I can hardly believe their attitude, especially considering it's toward people they want to work with. It seems... counterproductive, at best.

If it's any comfort, there are men in fandom who aren't anything like the people running FanLib.
I absolutely agree! And it is a comfort, seriously, because we have some great guys in the Buffyverse fandom alone, not to mention other fans in other fandoms I've run into.

I just think these particular guys are a bunch of men who have never so much as dipped their toes into fanfiction-fandom, and had no clue that it would consist mostly of women, or how to talk to that demographic without sounding patronizing. I think also that because they thought it was mostly women, they were the sorts of guys who assumed they could come in and start structuring, and ...um...we'd just jump up and follow along? Be their cheerleaders? Work for free?

I don't think they were expecting anyone to be skeptical or ask serious questions or have a reasoned reaction against it. And their reactions to some of those reasoned responses have been a little angry, on the order of "Can't you all see what we're doing for you?" O_o.

I just think these particular guys are a bunch of men who have never so much as dipped their toes into fanfiction-fandom, and had no clue that it would consist mostly of women, or how to talk to that demographic without sounding patronizing.

Yeah. You may very well be right about that. And it's problematic, because they clearly want to exploit fanfiction writers (by making money off their work while giving them nothing in return), and since they're men and fanfic writers are (mostly) women.... I guess I can see how that situation might take on sexist overtones. And the way they've been talking to fandom at large hasn't helped any.

Whatever the reasons behind the way they've acted, I don't want anything to do with them, and I'm not surprised that there are lots of other people out there who feel the same way.

If you've decided the whole Fanlib thing is bad news, the best you can do is remove the link to their site in your post. These guys will be existing on ad revenue (linked to page hits) and their Google ranking (linked to how many other sites link to theirs), and so linking to them only helps them out.

Dude! Thank you. I've removed the link, explained why in the ETA, and credited you.

FanLib is indeed bad news, if only because it puts a big ol' target on fanfiction.

(And could I possibly have used the word 'link' any more times in my previous comment?)

Yeah, FanLib is ... well, 'desperately naive and ignorant' would be as far as I could possibly go in giving them the benefits of the doubt. More than anything else, the way they're going about things reminds me of the dotcom boom back in '98 or so (which I JUST missed out on, damn comp sci degree taking too long!) There's a distinct air of 'Step 1: put stuff online; Step 2; ???; Step 3: profit!' Like all the guys who thought they could make their fortune with www.dentalflossonline.com - logic and business plans need not apply - we don't need none of that stuff when we've got venture capital and enthusiasm!

But they do have some thoroughly modern lawyers in there, obviously. The terms of that ToS are as nasty as any I've ever seen...

That? Is such great advice. I'll try to pass that along should I see anyone linking directly to their site.

Have you seen this? Thought you would appreciate it:
http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2007/05/cory-doctorow-in-praise-of-fanfic.html

I think I saw it through...ummm...I want to say Making Light? Maybe FandomWank linked to it. I know it was a couple of links removed from me something like last week.

*hugs Doctorow* He makes excellent, fair-handed points.

Yeah, if anyone linked to it, it was Teresa and Patrick! (And it all sounds so familiar, except I was 13 and my best friend and I used to take turns writing in a notebook. We wrote the equivalent of probably two novels in junior high/high school.)

Hey there! Can you just let me know if you got that thing that I sent back to you? I'm worried it's lost in the email ether...

Sorry, Yes, I got it. (just checked it this a.m.)

Note to self: Do not write posts with huge responses when expecting email.

Thank you for the very quick turn around. I gave it a quick look-over and your comments are excellent (as are your catches).

Thank you again!

Hee! Yes, I'm sure your inbox must have been very excited about all the attention!

You're welcome. :-) If there were any specific concerns you had, I'm happy to discuss, or to read through the rest when it's done. I really enjoyed reading it.

Hi sweetie. Want to make sure you've seen this: http://andpuff.livejournal.com/124453.html

It is quite amazing how unified fandom has become in such a short period of time. This is the MOST unified I have ever seen us. It's a beautiful thing. :P

This is a good summary post.
I am linking to this, thank you.

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FanLib: 101 Reasons to Stay Away

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RE: Old Thread

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