liz_marcs | The Problem with Anonymous Memes...

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The Problem with Anonymous Memes...

I have a confession to make.

*hangs head in shame*

I've been checking out

btvshate.

In my defense, anything and everything I've posted has been with me signed in and under my own name. Mostly, I've posted if something I'd seen made me laugh, made my jaw drop, or if a thread seemed (to me anyway) to get too mean so I could at least throw in a more moderate opinion.

I admit that I'm interested by the psychology behind anonymous memes. There always seems to be an evolution to these things and the pattern repeats over and over, regardless of the subject or targets.

First, these memes seem to start with someone stating what they think are unpopular fannish opinions, which...well why do that anonymously? You're stating an opinion about a television show and fictional characters. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that there'd be a lot of fear there. So people disagree with you. So what? I know I've got people on my FList who disagree with me about plenty of fannish opinions, but we all seem to get along just fine.

Still, some people feel uncomfortable expressing those opinions. Fine. Not important and no one gets hurt.

Then the knives come out...for the actors. Now this makes you blink just a little bit, because, damn, the gossip gets nasty. Still, you figure, "I'm sure these people have had a whole lot worse said about them. I highly doubt they're going to care about anything said on an LJ blog by anonymice."

We then move on to the "bashing other fan cliques" portion of the program. *sigh* Welcome to 2002–2003, where the grudges are still fresh and the same-ol-same-ol assumptions are being made that if you don't like "X" you must, by definition, like "Y."

Sadly, there are people still operating in this mindset. It makes me laugh like hell, on the one hand, because they're still arguing about the same damn thing even though the point is painfully moot. It makes me sad on the other because it's a reminder just how nasty online fandom did get at one point.

And then, we hit the "jackpot" (and I mean that sarcastically), when individual people get attacked. It's not enough to say, "I think so-and-so is overrated and here's why," which would be fair. There are plenty of people who think I'm overrated. Anyone who does fanfic or fanarts or fanvids or fansoundtracks has people who think they're very overrated.

"Overrated" is a fair judgement. Everyone has a right to their judgement. It's one of those things that can't really be defined and it comes down to personal taste, more often than not. It's the ultimate reminder that not everyone loves you and that you better grow up and accept it. Sometimes you just rub people the wrong way. It doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make them a bad person. Sometimes it just is.

Now, I can see people wanting to anonymously confess that, especially if they actually might like the people in question on a personal level, or if they had a bad experience with that person in the past and don't want to get dragged in the middle of a wank-fight.

But, when people start using the anonymous shield to call people "bitch" or "crazy" or just get personal and nasty...

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! That's sooooo not cool.

And yet, at some point, these anonymous memes really end up devolving to that point.

It's one thing to take the freedom and run with it. It's something of another to take the freedom and beat someone else over the head with it in public. This isn't expressing frustration with someone or a group of people in a FLocked post because their behavior has gotten up your nose. This is just downright meanness of spirit.

Damn. I might have to turn in my "mean girl" badge, hunh?

But what really interests me is this: Why bother with anonymous hate at all?

You can do plenty of "hate memes" that are fun and where no one gets hurt that aren't anonymous. I did a book hate meme in March.

othercat gifted us with

literarysnark.

fanficrants can get wanky at times, but considering the traffic there, I'm just surprised it's not more wanky than it is.

Hell, on the fan front, I remember sometime last year there was a spate of memes about "What's your unpopular fannish opinion?" that were not anonymous and were actually kind of fun.

Plus, people post unlocked and open rants in their private LJs all the time. I've seen occassional nasty happen as a result, usually because the various sides are arguing a point or have gotten sucked into the cycle of wank. It's not too often that I've seen over-the-top nasty happen, and even then everyone is at least using an identifiable username.

I guess my issue is this: if you're a person who ends up being discussed in an anonymous meme, it's hard to defend yourself. You know nothing about the person or persons commenting, you can't figure out their point of view, you can't even discern their real opinions. It's hard to respond in any manner that doesn't make you look childish, because you're forced to make assumptions about the other person or persons that may not be fair or correct. At least if someone uses their LJ name, you can at least visit their LJ and figure out their point of view so you can respond in a reasonable and sane manner.

Not sure about the purpose of this post, really. Just ruminating in my head, I guess.

Whatever your opinion of these hate memes that are springing up like mushrooms around LJ, you have to admit the psychology behind it is pretty interesting.

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I admit that I scanned through the mess when it was still at 400 comments or so. Mostly to see if I'd pissed someone off or if someone was ranting about how much they hate my fanfic. Just in case. And really, I have fics that I hate with the passion of a thousand suns even though they're mine.

*enjoys being under the radar completely*

I've managed to avoid getting hit myself. Then again, I've posted under my own name there, so maybe the mice are a little intimidated?

It surprises me how fast most mice back down whenever someone using their own LJ name steps in and comments in a thread. I can't account for it, to be honest.

The psychology of it fascinates me. The thing itself is *meh* very high school.

There's a phrase we use around our house, for the sort of people who would put a lot of time into creating or commenting at a "hate" community: "have too much time on their hands, and need to have their medication adjusted." And doing so anonymously? Please. Junior high school was bad enough, let's not recreate it online.

Fandom is fun, but people who get their panties in a knot about it mystify me. Hello? It's a TV show. If you want to get upset about something, read the newspaper, because there's so much in the world that is worthy of rage.

I'd crosspost this to hatecommhate, but I have a life.

I agree. Like I said, things like "unpopular fannish opinion" or "talk about books you hate" can be a ton of fun because it actually brings people together, more often than not. Fandom is supposed to be fun.

The anon memes could be interesting, if someone was riding herd on personal attacks on individual fans and deleting those comments. The problem is how they're set up: anything and everything is allowed and the people who get named and attacked have no defense against it.

I mean, if you're going to use an anon meme to personally attack someone, then, here's a thought maybe you know you shouldn't be saying it.

I make a big distinction between complaining about someone's or a group of someone's behavior in a FLock because they've done something that irritates/bothers you. That's different. Sometimes you need to get something off your chest, sometimes you need to check and see if you're overreacting to something. Sometimes you just need to vent. But at the same time, your name is attached, so you can take ownership of it.

The anon memes...*shakes head* Junior high is right.

The thing itself is not very interesting. The psychology of it, on the other hand, is endlessly fascinating.

In fact, given the number of fandom hate memes that have suddenly cropped up on LJ, I almost wonder if someone isn't doing a psychological test or paper on the phenominon.

Yanno, I didn't even know about the btvs hate or the sga hate memes until

ladycat777 told me about it, and I read a post about it by Stoney321--I am bubble girl. :> I don't really get "hate memes" at all. Though I might have *cough* read/participated in a few of the past ones.

I found out about it from Journalfen myself. I took a look at all of them and saw a similar pattern emerging. The more wanky the fandom, the more quickly the personal attacks happened.

Who knew that Highlander fandom could be so flipping nasty? I figured Veronica Mars or Harry Potter would be top of the heap. Not so.

The hate memes themselves are *meh* but the psychology that occurs and the evolution that happens in the threads themselves fascinates me.

And you know me: I post in an anon meme, I pretty much out myself right away. I'd rather own what I say and be upfront. Less headaches. :->

Wonderful human psychology. Put people in a pack, hide their identities, and see what kind of fun emerges. Kind of like the KKK. I'm not comparing LJers to the KKK, but it's the same mentality: If no one knows it's you, you're not responsible for your actions.

The funniest part is, LJ is already anonymous. If you're afraid to put your name on your opinion, maybe you should rethink that opinion.

Exactly.

But at the same time, its funny how much personal information we do put out there unintentionally. I'm sure there are plenty of people on LJ who, if they wanted to donate enough time and attention to finding me, could actually do it.

Also, the LJ identity is, um, identifiable to an extent. RL you may be anonymous, but the LJ identity isn't necessarily so. If you act like an ass under that LJ name on a consistent basis, you do get a rep. The only way to start over is to start fresh under a new LJ identity and completely divorce yourself from your old one. That takes a lot of work. And you can't slip up and give away part of your RL that looks like the parts you talked about under your old identity. That can get tricky.

But total anonymity where there's allegedly no IP blogging (and by the way, how do you know that's true?) really gives some people license to be jerks.

I'm not talking about the stupid stuff, like fannish opinion. I'm not even talking about gossiping about the actors or even making sweeping statements about whole groups of fans that are rediculous on its face.

I'm talking about singling someone out for public approbation. That's a real problem.

And again, I want to stress: a public anon hate meme is different than getting something off your chest in a FLock. I've done it, a lot of people have done it. Sometimes you see behavior that's so flabbergasting that you do need to talk about it with people on your FList you can trust. But at the same time, your name is on it, so if it comes back to haunt you, you do have to own it to a degree.

But, yeah, the pschology is interesting to watch as it evolves.

[quote] The funniest part is, LJ is already anonymous. If you're afraid to put your name on your opinion, maybe you should rethink that opinion. [/quote]

So true. But then I feel that way about a lot of stuff. If you're willing to do something or say something, you should be willing to *own* it and cop to it. Anonymity is chickenshit. Anyone can be brave if they know that they'll never be held accountable for their actions, or, in this case, even *associated* with the stuff they're saying.

I made the utter mistake of posting something there and found out that people hate me. (I deleted my posts so don't bother looking.) I am not particularly shocked that not everyone loves me, but from the sound of it, the anonymous poster is probably on my flist. What I do not like is gutless weenies who won't own up to their opinions. If you don't like someone don't read their posts and defriend them. I would much prefer that than have a "friend" who hates me.

I was actually trying to defend two fanfic writers that some anonymous person said that they hated. That is just so wrong. What is the point of attacking members of your own community? BTVS has been off the year for a while now, it is not likely to get additional fans or writers, there are so many other fandoms that are on the air to attract people to. So why try to drive people away from it with anonymous hurtful comments. I do not get it.

One of their comments was actually right, I really do not comment enough. So in that vein, if I have not said it lately, I love your stuff! I love everything that you written!

Hunh, so that was who that thread was directed at. Sorry I missed it, because I would have stepped in and defended you if I knew what the hell it was about.

That really is the ultimate gutless wonder, isn't it? Not just shiving someone in public, but shiving them in public to their face while hiding behind anonymity.

Look, I get FLocks and bitching about the behaviors of others that get up your nose. I have zero problem with it because, yeah, sometimes you see something that just flabbergasts you and you need to say something about it.

I've done it about a certain wank-tastic het-only fanfiction group where certain members spew some pretty hateful things and I've done it about inviduals (without naming them if I can help it). Sometimes you need to get it off your chest because it is bothersome when someone is acting like a total ass. But at least there's a name attached in a FLock. And it's sometimes nice to hear other people say that, no, you're not overreacting at all to the situation. It's a nice reality check.

I can even see complaining about someone's work anonymously if the person or their friends have a history of going after critics. Now me, I don't see the point doing it anonymously. If I'm not crazy about someone's work, I do try to back it up with some concrete examples of what bothers me from the story itself so it's clear that it's nothing personal and that it's just my opinion. Most people (95% of the people out there) are reasonable about it if you approach it from that angle.

Please, for awhile there I thought I was the only person on the planet that hated Repossession by Lazuli. It started promising and just...I have no idea what happened there. I think it was when she killed Riley a second time that I lost patience. But I've always made it clear that my problem was with the story itself and not the author (I didn't know her at all) and that it wasn't personal. Most people respected that, although I did get a few "yer jus' jellus" comments. But you're going to get that no matter what.

But personal attacks really do cross the line and that was definitely a personal attack from what I could see. Doing it anonymously to boot? That's just...it gives me the willies, to be honest, especially when they leave enough clues that they're on your FList. Jesus.

As for not leaving enough FB, I'm guilty of the same crime, really. Sometimes I get so tied up in my own stuff that I barely have time to properly respond to comments in my own journal. You provide a ton of links to other stories and you're busy with your contribution to fandom.

I think most people who know what you do understand that perfectly well.

I know I do.

*huggs*

Don't let it get you down.

Actually.... While I don't participate in these anonymous hate memes, I can understand why other people do. I don't usually feel comfortable talking about Spike in public, for instance (though I have done so on occasion), for lo, fandom has decreed him to be a good man and excellent shag and/or relationship fodder who everyone on the show was attracted to. (And yes, I know that not everyone is like this, I know that there are people who try to write Spike in a way that resembles what he was actually like on the show; I'm talking about the majority fannish opinion here).

The point is that when one's views about popular characters or pairings or what have you are out of the fannish mainstream, expressing your opinion often seems like more trouble than it's worth. Not because of any active persecution (though I know that's happened to people in the past) but just because it's not easy to go against the grain, as it were.

So I can understand wanting to vent anonymously, even though it's not something that I personally feel the need to do. I could probably work up a good rant about some stuff, but eh, everyone's in fandom for their own reasons, and believe me, I'm under no illusions that everyone loves me and my work either.

I'm not entirely sure the fannish opinion of Spike is the majority of fannish opinion these days. I'd say that the opinion is very much in flux as people go back and rewatch episodes back-to-back. I've been somewhat surprised to see more people warm up to Xander, for example, as they re-watch the series. It's also interesting to see that fewer people like Willow, just by contrast.

I think the problem with Spike (with all of the characters to an extent) is they stopped having a solid identity and started to become whatever the writers needed them to be for that episode.

I mean, seriously look at Xander. In one episode he can barely tie his shoes. In the next episode, he's an Olympic-level archer who's not only not surpirsed when when he hits his target on the wrist from across a crowded room, but that no one else is surprised he can do it either?

I think as far as expressing unpopular fannish opinion, the key is to not attack the fans and just understand that people like what they like and that they really shouldn't have to defend it.

I know my dislike of Spike has gone from burning hate to simple dislike, a lot of it because of the wonky characterization that character. In many ways, Spike was the character that got it insane characterization problem the worst because it seems like the writers couldn't quite agree on what kind of character he was. No wonder why fan opinion was split so sharply.

[I also think JM's performance was part of the problem. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I just don't think he's a good actor. He's a good character actor. Give him a character where he's allowed to chew the scenery ala Spike S2, and he can be fun to watch. I don't think he can pull off a romantic lead where chewing the scenery shouldn't be part of the program ala Spike S7, and I don't think he can really pull off serious drama. But again: my opinion. It shouldn't take away someone else's enjoyment of JM's performance, nor should it. What I don't like is when someone turns around and decides that I suck or that I'm ignorant because I don't happen to share their opinion.]

As for the fannon view of Spike, there are plenty of Spike fans who actually agree with you about it. A hell of a lot more than you think, that's for sure. It's the same for every character.

The thing is: "Unpopular" fannish opinions are often not that unpopular at all, I find. I think this fandom is big enough that you'll find plenty of people who will at least partially agree with you.

*shrug*

But then again, I find the whole debate itself interesting, provided no one gets personal about agreeing to disagree.

Honestly, the inconsistency argument doesn't really move me. It's not that I think you're wrong on the facts - I think you're absolutely right that Spike was inconsistently written (as was most everyone else). But you know, in life, we're all inconsistent. No one acts the same way all the time. Take an ax murderer, for instance - I don't particularly care if he's helping little old ladies across the street or whatever when he isn't killing people.

Or, to take an example that's a bit more on-point, abusive husbands/boyfriends can be very nice, pleasant, even sweet people a great deal of the time. It's what they do the rest of the time that matters. And Spike was consistently abusive toward every woman he had sex and/or a relationship with on the show. Which is why I find the practice of people pairing him with basically anyone to be more than a little creepy.

But then again, I find the whole debate itself interesting, provided no one gets personal about agreeing to disagree.

Yeah, I don't condone personal attacks when discussing fictional characters and the like. But the flip side of that is, if someone likes Spike because the character has a great deal of personal and emotional significance for them, there's probably not much I can say that won't seem like a personal attack. And since there seem to be quite a lot of people like that out there in Buffy fandom (or at least the LJ side of it), I try to avoid talking about him for the most part.

[quote] But the flip side of that is, if someone likes Spike because the character has a great deal of personal and emotional significance for them, there's probably not much I can say that won't seem like a personal attack. [/quote]

Very true. If I like Spike (or Xander, or Faith) and someone writes a three-page in-depth analysis of why that character sucks, is a horrible horrible person, blah-blah-rhubarb, it's all-too-easy to see that as not just a critique of that character, but as a critique of *my taste* and even my very sanity / morality / whatever for liking that character.

When even one of the freaking writers is saying stuff like, 'people who think Spike's a great boyfriend should go back to writing love-letters to the Hillside Strangler,' the seige mentality is going to be built up hard and fast, and even an innocent comment about another character being good in some scene can be inferred by a defensive fan as an implicit slam on their favorite character...

Sorta like when you say to your SO, 'Gee, that old friends lost a lot of weight,' and your SO turns around and says, 'So you're saying I'm fat?' and your brain freezes like a deer in headlights as you try to figure out how much this burst of insane Troll-logic from your SO is going to end up costing you in missed sex, bent-knee groveling and monetary compensation.

Fandom, all the downsides of marriage, none of the tax breaks or backrubs.

The whole thing baffles me. I'm out of the loop in this kind of thing; I only know about it because of something

stoney321 said about it in her LJ. I admit to going over to have a look, and made one comment about liking the show.
I find it astounding that people spend their time even thinking about stuff like this.
*boggles*

Like I said: I find the psychology interesting, more than the actual thing itself. But then again, I find human behavior pretty interesting.

It's like that song "The Stranger" by Billy Joel. People hide behind any numbers of masks. For example, here on LJ, we hide behind our LJ names. I don't think any of us would be too thrilled if our real identities got "outed" and used against us in RL.

But the bavior of some people (Lord knows, not all) when they're allowed to even throw off all trace of an identity and let loose is a fascinating phenominon in and of itself. That's when the stranger pows you but good right between the eyes.

I'm not getting away from the fact that being targeted isn't hurtful, but if someone is doing it behind a sheild of anonimity, you've got to consider that it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does you. Sometimes it's hard to hold on to if the attack is particularly vicious, but it's also true.

Me, I like holding on to the fun because I think 90% of this fandom are basically good eggs (except for the people on my FList, of which 100% are good eggs). Sometimes people do crummy things and say crummy things that you don't agree with, but on the whole, I don't think Buffy is too terribly mean as a rule. There are fandoms that are a hell of a lot meaner and nastier than Buffy fandom ever thought of being.

Although I'm with you: There's totally no call for some of the crap in the BtVS anon meme at all.

I think, as you say, posting anonymously seems to encourage people to leave all common sense behind, and let their nasty sides show. I find it rather astounding that a fictitious world can inspire such venom...I mean, it's just a show, for heaven's sakes!
I personally love the whole show (Buffy), and there are characters I identify with more strongly than others. I would never suggest that because Buffy is my favourite character, all others must love her too...but I guess that's because I'm actually an adult, reasonably able to tell the difference between reality and fiction.

To be honest Liz, I don't see the pshychology of looking at something like btvshate if you don't agree (now if there was a group called Spikehate I'd be tempted). But seriously why a) look at a group that you're not interested in or b) join a hate group, why waste all that energy negatively?

To me, such behaviour reminds me of that Katar Hol char who hated everything about Living History, but couldn't wait to read every part and tell you where you were going wrong.

What's so interesting about it?

Some people, by and large, will do things they wouldn't otherwise do if there's no way for it to be traced back to them. Or if everyone else is doing it.

As for the anonymous meme, everything I wrote there was under my own name, and only as a reaction of the joking kind to something. I really don't hate anyone in fandom, I don't even know the people, and I really don't bother with hating internet personas, cause' sometimes, that's all they are, I've met people that I found to be assholes on the net, and in RL, they're great people.

However, I can understand if some people take advantage of the anonimity to say things that would get them "punished" for it if they were to tell them with their names attached to it. Fandom being what it is...

Can't really understand why anonymous comments, the kind of "so and so sucks" should be given any weight by the targets though, gee, someone out there doesn't like me? How is that any different from yesterday?

[quote] Can't really understand why anonymous comments, the kind of "so and so sucks" should be given any weight by the targets though, gee, someone out there doesn't like me? How is that any different from yesterday? [/quote]

The popular response to personal criticism from someone you don't really know around these parts is, "I somehow made it twenty (30, 40, whatever) years without giving a shit what you thought of me before, why should I start now when it's working so well for me?" :)

Or to Cordelia-ize it, 'Hello? When has your opinion *ever* mattered?'

I guess my issue is this: if you're a person who ends up being discussed in an anonymous meme, it's hard to defend yourself. You know nothing about the person or persons commenting, you can't figure out their point of view, you can't even discern their real opinions. It's hard to respond in any manner that doesn't make you look childish, because you're forced to make assumptions about the other person or persons that may not be fair or correct. At least if someone uses their LJ name, you can at least visit their LJ and figure out their point of view so you can respond in a reasonable and sane manner.

Why would anyone want to defend themselves against anonymous hate? It's like going over to Fandom Wank and trying to seriously defend oneself, sure one can, but why? I've been hated on in some really really ugly hate memes and so have some of my close friends and yeah, it's not fun, but in most cases I was pretty sure who the haters were and nothing we could say was going to make them change their minds about us.

The thing is, people who post on anonymous hatememes don't want to discuss things in a "reasonable and sane manner." If they did, they wouldn't be posting there.

I agree with you and as a 'little person' as that one chick called non-'BNF', I 've always been able to go toe to toe with whoever, no matter their status in fandom, with my username displayed.

I'm still kind of not getting why people would even feel the need to defend themselves to an anon hatememe. I mean, it strikes me as obvious that most accusations there are very cracky and I doubt any outsider who reads them actually takes them seriously (besides, if they really wanted to, they could always address the issue in a main post in their journal).

At least I never take the things said at hatememes very seriously. When I see somebody being called a bitch on a hatememe, my first reaction isn't "Wow, that person is probably a bitch." it's "Oh, apparently somebody has *issues* with this person. Chances are that they (the hate victim) are probably interesting and controversal, it makes me want to check out their journal.".

As crazy as it sounds, for somebody outside of the fandom hatememes can be a pretty good indicator about who in the fandom has something interesting to offer (enough to make them a BNF who inspired hatred), pretty much the opposite of what the actual intention is. I was never part of the Buffy fandom (only caught the show on DVDs after it was already gone) and reading the hatememe felt like walking through a short history of the fanom, who the important people are, what the main gossip was, what the big wank and controversies were. To me that is interesting (and yes, I realize that that makes me selfish, that I look at it mostly from the POV of how it benefits me as an outsider).

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The Problem with Anonymous Memes...

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Why Bother?

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here by way of metafandom

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