liz_marcs | Waking up to horror...

I heard on the radio this morning, so before I get to work:

All my hopes and prayers for people in London and their relatives. May you and yours be safe and well.

ETA: There is a check-in community for LJers at

london_070705.

Now that the shock has worn off, I'm now worried about the "afterwards." This is normal for me and is not meant as disrespect for the victims or their families. I knew with 9/11 even before the second tower fell that it was going to be used to start a war (little did I know that it would be used to start the wrong war).

I fear this situation will quickly spiral even more out of control than it already is.

Would that there was someone who could pull us back from the brink of this.

I hope that the leaders in the U.K. are more level-headed with the aftermath than the leaders in the U.S. were.

U.K.ers: If You Need to Contact Someone

ETA2: Also, it appears that

london_070705 is looking for people willing to pass on messages to loved ones in other countries. If there's anyone on my FList or anyone on my FLIst who knows someone who needs me to contact people in Massachusetts or the New England region (I will be online all day), please let me know at liz DOT marcs AT gmail DOT com.

I will be more than happy to pass on whatever message you need me to pass on via phone or email.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I was going to start quoting what I agreed with in your post, then I realized I pretty much agreed with everything you said.

So, ditto.

Also, the LJ "Check-In" link had a tag error. What is it again?

Not a Londoner, but lived there five and a half years, so know too many people to count.

I don't think Blair will be starting any more wars in a hurry. On the other hand, I suspect this will stiffen popular "resolve" to stay in Iraq. The Brits, I suspect, won't be deflected from their path by terrorism, whether that path is right or wrong.

What I do fear is likely is that this will be used to launch further attacks of civil liberties. The Muslim community is also likely to get it in the neck, with more racist attacks and targeting by police. And in the case of racist attacks, anyone that the boneheads think looks Muslim is likely to be a target too, e.g. Sikhs.

It pains me to say it, but this kind of attack is not really new to the UK. Through the 80s and 90s we suffered bomb attacks and threats on an almost constant basis - principally from IRA and other Northern Irish terrorist groups. I doubt this will spur an instant all-out-war reaction from the UK government, instead - as

smhwpf said - it will tend to strengthen resolve in existing campaigns. And will no doubt lead to increased personal attacks on Muslims, Sikhs, Arabs and asylum seekers in this country - as well as anyone else who bears any resemblence to those the thugs will see as the culprits.

Agree with the statements made by

smhwpf and

mara_sho, and it's a sad state of affairs to actually say that we're used to it by now, even though the attacks come from a different source than they did during the 80's and 90's.

I feel your pain too. I'm in Macclesfield (North East England) and I worry a bit. So far not many have been confirmed dead, but stil... I hope

littlefeltfangs is OK. He should be down at uni now, (in wales) but he does have a home in London so... sadly I can't get through to him, I'll try later. Anyway, I hope there's no horrible backlash. To be honest, though, I wouldn't be suprised if there was.
I wonder who the next target will be. :groan:

Don't think this will change much of anything, Jacques Chirac did more to strengthen British resolve and surport America than any little terror bomb could. Apparently the arabic message was pretty badly written, my best guess would be that its a domestic copy cat group responsible. (Its not the IRAs style, or interest, and although they could have pulled it off theres no reason why they would do so and not claim responsibility, certainly they would not fabricate that another group was responsible)

Only concern is that Blair will now have the ammunition to force through his insane ID card system. Its gonna cost each person $500 and would do absolutely nothing to stop someone putting a bomb on a train.

Our emergency services coped well it seems.

Have quite a few freinds in London, but i'm sure they all would have been at work when the bombs went off.

Interested in your comment that 9/11 was used to start the wrong war. This implies (although you perhaps didn't mean this) that you think there was a right war to start as a result of the terrorist attack in New York.

Which war do you think should have been started as a result of the twin towers?

Curiously,

Paul Fieber
paulf~at~hyboria~dot~net

I don't think anyone would have blamed us for going after ObL and, in fact, we did have the support of the international community to do just that. So perhaps "war" is incorrect. International police operation to bring in ObL, his people, and take down the al-Qaeda network would be more correct.

The key here is this: we had international support to do that. (Go hunting for ObL). I'm probably one of the few people who knew who he was and al-Qaeda before 9/11, since I read an awful lot of about African and Middle Eastern insurgencies. The simple fact is, yes, al-Qaeda did did have support from some regimes, but it also had support from the local population. ObL financed via al-Qaeda hospitals, schools, and numerous other civic projects. However, there are a hell of a lot of Islamic governments that wanted al-Qaeda to go away and if the U.S. was willing to stomp on al-Qaeda for them, they would've held our coats.

[Interesting to note: prior to the attacks on the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya in 1998, there was some debate about what role ObL played in al-Qaeda. Most people seemed to think he was nothing more than "the money man," a role he'd played during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. He'd pay for the guns and the training and whatever the mujahideen needed, as well as make sure foreign fighters were orientated in Afghanistan. And don't forget, dude, who the hell do you think helped ObL get his hands on weapons and trainings? And who do you think paid for all those training camps in Afghanistan? Seriously man. This shit truly did come back to bite us in the ass.]

His ultimate goal at the beginning when al-Qaeda was founded (if you read any of his statements): "Get your ass out of Saudi Arabia, and while you're at it, out of Sudan." Prior to 9/11, he did not give a fuck about Israel or the "Palestinian problem." That is a recent addition to show unity with the rest of the Arab world.

Sorry. Where was I?

Oh, yeah. If we went after ObL immediately after 9/11, we would have had international help as well as the blessing of the U.N. If we reached out to the Islamic countries after 9/11, we wouldn't have created ourselves a little terrorist training ground in Iraq.

The Bush Administration started an illegal war, using illegal means. The American people were told that somehow Iraq was involved (which is why I was immediately against the Iraq invasion since I knew it was a big ol' lie the second it was said) and an awful lot of uninformed people bought it. Intelligence documents were doctored and people in the government who said the intelligence was doctored found themselves out on their ass or outed as CIA undercover employees.

Furthermore, the Bush Administration failed to provide for our troops the most basic necessities and never considered how easily his "lightening invasion" could be turned into an occupation. I mean, Jesus, anyone who knew the history of the region, could've told you that Iraq was Vietnam Part II. And right now? Looking at the potential long-term consequences of our *snort* flypaper strategy—which is working sooooo well by the way, if you ask Madrid or London—where Iraq is now a convenient al-Qaeda training ground? I think by the time this is over, Iraq will make Vietnam look like a brawl of first graders over a lime green lollipop.

For references:
World's Most Dangerous Places by Robert Young Pelton

Against All Enemies by Richard A. Clarke

Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile

Informed Comment by Juan Cole

Alliance for Security

Waking up to horror...

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What would have been the right one?

Re: What would have been the right one?