liz_marcs | *grrrrrrrr* Let's talk grey area...

Current Mood: annoyed

grrrrrrrr Let's talk grey area...

This is not a case of plagiarism, but it is disconcerting (to put it politely).

I got an email from someone who spotted a story on Twisting the Hellmouth where the author said their story was "inspired" by Contrite Spirits.

Okay, fine and good. No problem with that. Actually gives me a warm fuzzy.

Except, my correspondent went on to say, this is the kind of Xander story that they know I dislike and that they were kind of surprised that I agreed to let someone write a "prequel" story that had those kinds of elements in it.

My morbidly curious self clicked on the link and I read it.

*headdesk headdesk headdesk*

Look, you can't copyright ideas. I know that. And it's flattering that someone is inspired by one of my fics for one of their own.

Buuuuuuuuut....

On reading this story, my jaw slowly opened and I was immitating idiot Jeb in all his slack-jawed yokelism.

Because, yo! Way to miss the whole frigging point of Contrite Spirits, dude!

Oh, let me count the ways of the wrongability of connecting this story to Contrite Spirits.

Random flashbacks are thrown willy-nilly around story to the point where I can't tell what's happening when.
Xander is tossed over by his meeeeean friends when they take Robin's side over his in an incident where Robin is clearly in the wrong. The author has forgotten canon, apparantly. Buffy can't possibly be Robin's biggest fan either, since Robin was involved in a plot to dust Spike. While I'm not Spike's biggest fan and would've cheered had Robin succeeded, Robin's interpersonal bullshit with Spike was the last thing Buffy needed on top of everything else she had to deal with. So, really, I can't see any way where Buffy would simply trade Xander for Robin now that the crisis is past. Nope. Sorry.
Have I mentioned that in this incident Xander accidentally shoots Robin in the leg with a crossbow bolt because he was taken by surprise when he tripped over Robin cheating on Faith with another Slayer? So, of course, his meeeeeean friends are not even willing to listen to his explanation of what happened.
Somehow, a year or two goes by (hard to tell with the flashbacks), and Faith doesn't even hear a whisper of what happened and all of Xander's meeeeeeaaaan friends don't discourage her from thinking that Xander's "attack" on Robin was unprovoked because he was "jealous" of Robin's standing among the Scoobs.
Naturally Faith and Robin are broken up now because Faith had a fling while she was out of town and Robin refuses to forgive her. Thus our demonization of Robin is complete.
Africa is, of course, seen as unimportant, which is why the Council lets Xander go there. Yeah, we'll send the "burned out" and "incompetent" guy to Africa with no oversight because we're hoping he'll run into some rebel group or he'll step on a landmine, which will take care of the problem for us and we won't have to fire him or anything.
Xander manages to save VERY IMPORTANT PEOPLE with MONEY and CONNECTIONS while he's in South Africa. These VERY IMPROTANT PEOPLE with oodles of POWER, the kind of POWER that made even the old Watcher's Council sit up, beg, roll over, and play dead, adopt ol' Xander like he's their own son.
Xander, of course, becomes uber-competent Xander who always gets his Slayer and, in fact, has the highest Slayer recruitment rate of anyone in the world

The story seems to be a WiP and last we saw, Giles has decided to pair Xander and Faith up so they can do the more important recruiting effort in North America.

*headdesk headdesk headdesk*

This story has zero to do with Contrite Spirts, in either spirit, tone, concept, or characterization. Let's never mind that my WiP Discovering the Truth About the Wizard of Oz takes place only months after Contrite Spirits.

The simple fact is, this is a case where my hands are tied. There's no plagiarism and (I assume) there's no plans to fold my story into it. In truth, I'm completely unsure what to do about it or even if I can do anything about it.

It's simply annoying on an epic scale that a story I worked so hard on and am so proud of is being misrepresented in this way.

People who are fans of the kind of story that is on Twisting the Hellmouth are going to be mightily disappointed if they read Contrite Spirits. People who like Contrite Spirits (like the person who emailed me about this), are going to think that I have something to do with the story on Twisting the Hellmouth.

*stomps around like Stitch on a city made of playing cards*

This is something completely different than what

othercat once proposed: that her fanon version of Xander and my fanon version of Xander meet face-to-face. Why? One, she told me about it; two, our Xanders are actually pretty close in tone, style, and characterization.

Heeee! With apologies to

othercat:

OWS Xander: I'll have to talk to my boyfriend about this. He's a lawyer, well, ex-lawyer. Maybe he can figure out this contract you signed.

WHMD Xander: Wait! Whoa! Hold up! You...you're...dating...

OWS Xander (tense): Yes?

WHMD Xander: You're dating a LAWYER? Haven't you heard lawyers are evil?

OWS Xander: Oh. So you've met Lindsey, then?

WHMD Xander: I thought you said you were dating a guy.

OWS Xander (headdesks): Lindsey is his name.

WHMD Xander: That's kind of not a very manly-man name. What's wrong with Steve. Or Barry. Or...

OWS Xander (grumbles): Keep this up, I'm asking Linds to sic Hyena on you.

WHMD Xander (yelps): He's possessed by a hyena, too! You're dating hyena-possed lawyers? Have you lost your mind? Have we learned nothing about possession? Did we forget that we had to be de-wormed after eating that pig? There were pills! And medication!

OWS Xander: Speaking of medication, have you considered trying Prozac?

WHMD Xander: Have I mentioned that I'm having a very strange year?

Heeee. I think I cheered myself up.

othercat can kill me now.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If it's the story I think that you're referring to, then I had absolutely no idea that it was even remotely connected to CS in anyone's mind.

The author is pretty prolific in his own right, with several other stories all dealing with broadly the same issues in different ways and until you mentioned it - hell, even after you mentioned it in fact - I saw no real resemblance between the two, don't worry.

Look on the bright side! Free pimpage :)

Xander always manages to get in with those rich and powerful folks in such fics! (as opposed to his meeeen friends, who are often financially disenfranchised and jealous, but omg, deserve their poverty because of their meeeeeen nature). And those powerful wealthy people are often as sweet as can be, treat Xander like a son, and help him actualize his potential! And he and they invest money in things that not only help the world, but make them more money!

Sometimes I think these stories are written by Scientologists.

It did remind me a bit of one of the discussions I had with a certain member on XZ. He wanted that Xander would 'proof' himself worthy by connecting himself with powerful people (the president for example). I pointed out that his friends *are* powerful people. And in that respect he is actualizing his potential already.

*hugs* Sorry about the weird fic...thing. Don't let it get you down. Most of us readers are already skeptical of fics that are "inspired" and "have permission from" other fics/authors we love. Sorry you're cursed with fangirls/fanboys. LOL

I don't even know who's writing that, but I'm gonna boycott it on your behalf. Active boycotting of an unknown story is where it's at, man!

But I get what you're saying, and if any of that stuff you put is true (er... not that it wouldn't be... but you know what i mean) then said author has done a disservice to your story, you, and me (because it hurts me when these people make their existence intrude upon my world).

Anyway, yeah. Go you. Boo him. Let Xander be Xander! =)

Way to make me insanely curious about who and what and all...

(And hmm, I am surprised they've got a big honkin' Paypal icon right on the splash page. Doesn't that seem to cross into another grey area?)

I had the same thing happen to me once: someone set a story in the same universe as "While the Women Came and Went." Except that the writer hadn't done the same kind of anecdotal and factual research into US military life and Afghani culture as I had, and I ended up feeling offended at the inaccuracies-- feeling, really, that the other writer hadn't set her story in my universe at all.

I ended up ignoring the story, not sending any feedback or otherwise acknowledging its connection to my own work. After the shock and frustration passed, I've come to feel a bit flattered. Someone enjoyed my work enough to write fic based on it, and that's something that a lot of commercially published fiction writers can't claim.

WHMD Xander (yelps): He's possessed by a hyena, too! You're dating hyena-possed lawyers? Have you lost your mind? Have we learned nothing about possession? Did we forget that we had to be de-wormed after eating that pig? There were pills! And medication

Can I tell you how funny this line is. Amidst all the things people talk about with animal possession stuff, nobody ever warns about the dangers of worms.

Am I a terrible person for finding this kind of funny? It never ceases to amaze me that people can read something and think it's all about the mating habits of lemurs in Madagascar when everything the author has every said makes it obvious that it's really about Chinese dim sem.

Then again, the desire for wish fulfillment allows many people to turn gold into pig's ears.

You know, I think I started reading that one. It's hard to tell, because they all bleed together at some point.....

I never got any sense, in what little I read, of how exactly that author thinks that it fits along the lines of Contrite Spirits....

Should I write a Xander-beating-OOCfanfic-writer scene into Fanon Fodder for you?

Xander's meeeeeaan friends, how I hate them. I hate them almost as much as I hate Xander-Stu and his new and improved soooper-speshul friends.

Don't worry about your Contrite Spirits inspiring this. Anybody with any perception will see that your fic inspired the badfic in the same way Joss's original work inspires badfic; an incompetent writer sees something well made and wants to do likewise, but fails.

I hurt myself laughing re the Xander meet-up. Especially the riff about hyenas and possession and ::poor Xander!:: the worming.

I don't think OC will kill you. I think she'll probably squee really loud.

She did indeed Squee. *nods*

Dude! Do I know my cats or what?

*sigh*

Really, what can you do? You *might* get the admins of TTH to force him to not refer to your fic, but that's a dream, IMO.

I'm curious as to the fic, but to be honest, Xander's MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAN friends is a plot device that bores the crap out of me because it's so abused. Kind of like the Halloween bit, and the Xander's kind of turned but not really bit, and the Xander and his powerful friends bit...gah.

The "Incredibe Xander Powers" bit is touchy for me with Odinborn and all, but I'd like to think I've worked it intelligently and differently enough.

I think you've stumbled over one of the more frustrating things about fanfiction: authors work hard on their stories (well, some of them, anyway), but at the end of the day those authors have no way to protect the fruits of their labor. I could go out and write a fic in the Living History-verse, and there'd really be absolutely nothing you could do about it.

Not that I would ever do that.

Actually, there is something you can do, which is complain to any and all who will listen in as many forums as possible that you do not endorse the interloper into your expansion of the Jossverse. And I would say that you are already doing that quite nicely.

I liked your OC X v. LM X discussion. Personally, I think het-Xander'd be a lot more weirded out at the idea of a gay version of himself, but that might be because of my own slash-aversion.

Actually, I think Het Xander would be more freaked by the lawyerness, myself. But, am biased. Ebil Slasher, I am. *nods*

You'll have to kill me first, Ma'am...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/othercat/461552.html

Also, can I just say WTF? on the entire "Xander being sent to Africa is proof that he isn't considered competent!" That I've seen in both slash and het fics? ARRRRGGGH!

Also, Hee!

Hyena: (in teenaged Xander form) *to OWS Xander* Dude, and I thought *YOU* were twitchy.

Also, can I just say WTF? on the entire "Xander being sent to Africa is proof that he isn't considered competent!" That I've seen in both slash and het fics? ARRRRGGGH!

Not to butt in... but, "Amen" to that. Yeah, let's send the incompetent guy to a completely foreign country with a significantly different culture, major non-English speaking population, loads of remote areas with little in the way of modern amenities, with little but a magic map and the directive,"Go forth and recruit slayers". Very silly notion.

I simply can't understand that contention either. If anything, if they thought he was incompetent, he would be acting as Giles's "assistant" like Andrew, a job he apparantly didn't hold on to because he was with Buffy in Rome within a year.

If anything, it seems to me that letting the one-eyed guy knock around all by himself on an entire continent where the culture cannot be considered remotely western outside of maybe South Africa and the larger cities, English is unheard of outside of the major cities, and where a large portion of the continent is tied up in wars or rebellions, where access to basic healthcare is an issue (while people die of diseases that could be cured with pencillin, let alone AIDS)...

Yeah...let's send the incompetent guy there.

Nope. Don't see it either.

Heeeee!

That's a good one. I'm tempted to write an answer, but it might spoil some parts of Water.

I don't know, but I would say that there is a *huge* difference between 'inspired' by your if or having written a 'prequel' to your fic.

If it's inspired, I would say why would you care? But, if he/she is messing with your fandom, than I would try to contact the author and tell him/her that you don't like him/her to mess with your fandom.

But, by the way you are telling this, I would say it was inspired. And then I would say let it rest. Despite the fact that it was a fic you really don't like.

Shamefully, I have to admit I still have to read Contrite Spirits of which I now make a point of reading it ;)

You arguments against the fic. is somewhat close to Robin Hobb’s that she uses in her rant against fanfic.

It's simply annoying on an epic scale that a story I worked so hard on and am so proud of is being misrepresented in this way.

Robin Hobb
Fan fiction is like any other form of identity theft. It injures the name of the party whose identity is stolen. When it’s financial identity theft, the thief can ruin your credit rating. When it’s creative identity theft, fan fiction can sully your credit with your readers. Anyone who read fan fiction about Harry Potter, for instance, would have an entirely different idea of what those stories are about than if he had simply read J.K. Rowling’s books. In this way, the reader’s impression of the writer’s work and creativity is changed. My name is irrevocably attached to my stories and characters. Writers who post a story at Fanfiction.net or anywhere else and identify it as a Robin Hobb fan fiction or a Farseer fan fiction are claiming my groundwork as their own. That is just not right.

That was an enlightening read, lol. I do agree with the though. That's why in the case of BtVS I have a personal rule I want the characters as much as in character as possible - because BtVS is a show based around characters.

And as you can see in Liz's rant, almost (IMO every) point she made it was based around the characters are not in character.

The other thing is this: Original Authors of Original Work have protection and they get paid. Ms. Hobb says she doesn't like fanfiction and doesn't want people to do it based on her books and characters. In a perfect world, that would be the end of it. People would respect her wishes and not write fanfaction.

Although, you and I know that it doesn't happen that way.

On the other hand, as I pointed out in my plagiarism post, Joss Whedon has implicitly and explicitly given people permission to "borrow the car" so to speak, while making it clear that it does not affect canon since he does not read it. Ergo, it isn't "stealing" when an originator is willing to do that. Other people who've said they have no issue with fanfiction include JK Rowling and Ron Moore. Hell, JMS of Babylon 5 fame encourages fanfiction to the point where he's written fanfiction for his own show.

However, as someone who writes fanfiction, I don't have (nor should I have) the same protections as an Original Author. That also means people might be allowed to make assumptions when another fanfiction writer references something I've done: such as that I've given my okay.

On the other hand, no one in their right minds would assume that an Original Author is sanctioning a particular fanfic writer or fanfic story (hence the disclaimers that should be with every fanfiction piece indicating who owns what).

Now, were I an Original Author? I'd have no problems with it because:

1) It encourages people to check out my work.
2) It's a form of fan-based marketing.
3) I can't read it anyway, so I can't be bothered by what I don't know.
4) I'm the only one ultimately making money off the deal.

Plus, as

koos73 points out, my issue is that the characters in this particular story are not in character even with canon, let alone my fanon version. There was no point to even mentioning my name in connection with this story and I'm mystified as to why it was.

I also see it as a form of feedback. A form of discussion. How often doesn't fanfiction originate from showing a point of view or a What If situation?

Just read your Discovering the Truth about the Wizard of Oz, and you've hooked me.

Any eta (being weeks months years) for the next chapter? I love how Alexandrine interacts with Xander. As always your voices are so true plus how can I not want to see more of smarmy Council politics as lead by RWP himself?

Discovering is on temporary hiatus until I finish Water.

The thing is, the challenge that prompted Water came in first. The fic-a-thon that resulted in Discovering came in second. It'll probably be picked up again come September/October and will be a lot shorter than Water turned out to be.

Incredible as this sounds, Water wasn't designed to be as long as it was, but to hit all the plot points that I needed to hit, it turned out to be a lot more work and writing than I planned.

Ow, ow, ow. I'd read that story once, and you just reminded me of it. I think I preferred Tenhawk's umpteenth variation of transforming Xander into the Punisher (always remembering to kill off Willow in the first chapter, because Ten hates him some Willow). At least then you knew upfront that Xander was going to be OOC.

I normally avoid slash, so to hear that "Xander is incompentent and sent to Africa because it's unimportant" happens in slash as well as het is a surprise. (Does this mean there's a slash equivalent of silveragent out there?) Now I'm curious: What other WTF? fanon ideas about Xander do slash and het have in common besides the "meeeean friends"?

Silveragent? *is curious*

Silveragent is a bit of a gadfly who used to flitter from Xander-centric group to Xander-centric group. He is polite and extremely intelligent, which is why he never got banned outright from these places, but he has some deeply held beliefs about canon that make completely no sense.

For example, he truly believes that Xander will always be the picked-on and put-upon member of the Scoobies, and will be always reveiled by people with special powers (like Buffy and Willow) and thus constantly put in his place.

He also believes that Anya never really loved Xander and that the only person he can ever find true happiness is with Dawn because she's the only other "normal" in the Scooby gang (ummm, forgetting that she's the embodiment of an Immortal Mystical Key and can translate any language, because he refuses to accept those facts).

Ergo, Xander is the "perpetual loser" who will always lose out to more powerful men/potential love interests. My argument against that was that Xander seems unerringly drawn to people with power himself, which was shown pretty much consistently throughout the whole series. So Xander is hardly "innocent" if you're going to throw around the "accusation" that "all the other Scoobs are attracted to power in their potential love interests." Not that Silveragent bought that argument.

Now keep in mind, he's a Xander fan.

One example of his "Xander the loser paradigm:"

Near the end, Buffy asks Xander to spirit Dawn out of town before the last battle, which Xander reluctantly agrees to do. Silveragent would point to this as "proof" that Buffy did not value either Xander or Dawn.

However, I kept trying to counter-argue the following:

1. Buffy said she may have been willing to sacrifice Dawn to save the world in LMPTM, but she pretty much consistently showed that she was reluctant to hurt people who mattered to her, or was willing to put them deliberately in harm's way. For example, Spike vs. Robin in LMPTM. Also, she held off taking action against a re-demonized Anya until she had proof that Anya was racking up the body count again (you could argue either way that it was because she considered Anya an ally, or because she was trying to spare Xander).

2. Buffy consistently trusted Xander to take care of people she viewed as "helpless." For example, Potentials were staying at Xander's apartment with only him as the protective influence and she trusted him to make sure all the Potentials got out of their battle with Caleb (something which cost him an eye). Telling Xander to get Dawn out of town was a case of "more of the same." She knew Xander would die to prevent anything bad from happening to Dawn if that's what it took.

3. Buffy swapped up the fighting pairs in the final battle so that Xander, once again, was the one watching Dawn's back, as opposed to Andrew, who she knew she couldn't trust, or Anya, who she couldn't necessarily trust to specifically protect Dawn. That showed me that Buffy placed a very high value on what Xander could do. After all, she entrusted him with her own sister, not just once, but twice, in the space of two episodes.

4. When Buffy went into her "Everyone sucks but me" rant after Chloe committed suicide, her core complaint was that no one was contributing to their fullest potential. She (rightfully) pointed out that the Potentials were not doing everything they could; she (rightfully) pointed out that Anya was helping, but that she also came with baggage that caused problems (hit demons); and (somewhat unfairly) that neither Spike or Willow were willing to do whatever it took to keep people safe and fight the First. The only person she left off her list was Xander because he was contributing to his fullest potential (and I argue that Buffy thought that as well), even though he also spoke up and protested her rant as being unfair along with Anya, Spike, and Willow. In fact, he was the only person in the room that she didn't snap at during that scene.

Yet, Silveragent absolutely refused to see any of this as proof that Buffy valued Xander for what he could do (i.e., making sure the everyday things got done so she could focus on the big things; making sure people escaped the crossfire safely so she could fight the battle), and announced that all I did was prove that Buffy valued Dawn as little as she valued Xander.

And by the way, Silveragent, back on the XZ, accused me of remaking Xander over into Angel Jr. or Spike Jr. because, in his mind, I was not writing Xander as he should be written, i.e., the doormat who gets stepped on by his powerful friends.

Although he never did tell me why I would pick less-popular Xander to write about as opposed to insanely popular Spike instead. *shakes head*

While I agree that Buffy has much more value for Xander than most fans think, that what Xander said in Potential is also true. The best example in my opinion is in Empty Spaces where she tells Giles that the only person she can trust her back with is Spike, while the person who had lost his eye for her lies in the hospital. Now I don't think she meant it and was purely a reaction to what Giles had done in LMPTM, but it does show that she simply forgets about Xander. Add to the fact that she also has said that Spike was incompetent, yet the strongest ally she had, I am not so sure how serious she takes Xander as a fellow warrior.

I think she decided to have Xander take care of Dawn because he is best suited for that job. Xander isn't the strongest fighter and wouldn't make a difference in battle. But Xander is capable of doing anything to protect Dawn and Spike already had failed at that (The Gift). She also couldn't trust Dawn and Angel would become involved in the war. Hence, Xander is left for that task. Point three mistifies me to be honest. She could have asked Spike (strictly speaking practically everyone could have used the amulet). She could have asked Giles or Wood (but she doesn't trust them). But all three fighters are better fighters than Xander is. It kind of fells that Buffy tries to force the issue and wanted to show Xander that she does recognize him as fellow warrior.

A lot of fans thinks that that is the case. I don't. Xander and Dawn used the surprise element of sunlight in their fight, whereas the other fighters did as they were trained to do: use martial arts. It is their first instinct. Xander is very cunning IMO when it comes down to trickery and suprise elements in fights. Spike too, but he fights too fair. Spike 'failed' to protect Dawn from the doctor in The Gift, whereas Xander did manage to temporarily kill the doctor the episode before (with a sword).
Second, Xander would not hesitate for a microsecond to sacrify himself to protect Dawn. Spike would have done the same, but would the others have?

Anyway, I do think that in the end Buffy did value Xander very highly.

[quote] she held off taking action against a re-demonized Anya until she had proof that Anya was racking up the body count again (you could argue either way that it was because she considered Anya an ally, or because she was trying to spare Xander). [/quote]

I don't think we are *ever* given the slightest notion that Buffy regards Anya as anything other than a pain in the neck.

Out of those two choices, Buffy definitely would have been more on the 'sparing Xander' side of the fence, since she clearly associates fighting Anya with sending Angel(us) to hell in Selfless.

But, IMO, Buffy treated the re-venged Anyanka the same way she treated the Trio. As long as the situation wasn't being shoved in her face, she ignored it. Whether she was doing this to spare Xander's feelings, or simply because she had bigger fish to fry, isn't really made clear. She seemed to avoid the entire situation, as long as she could get away with it.

Set

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grrrrrrrr Let's talk grey area...

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Answer Part 1

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