You mean they PAY you for writing Buffy badfic? Where do I sign up this scam?

[liz_marcs]

Part 23 of Water Hold Me Down is here, if you're looking for it.

I did nothing today. NOTHING!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA!

Actually, I did some work on Water Hold Me Down and took a stab at my long-delayed Africander soundtrack.

I'm thinking seriously of just dumping doing the linear notes for it and just posting the soundtrack (I think I changed the order in one or two spots) with mara_sho's covers.

Aside from that, I did manage to take a peak at Whedonesque to see if there was any new news on the BtVS cast and crew in projects.

So, naturally, the buzz (and what howls there are!) about the awfulness of Queen of the Slayers, Nancy Holder's post-'Chosen' novel. And no, I ain't linking because, Holy Canoli! Badness surely abounds.



So, let me get this straight:

Holder, who got bitch-slapped for her last book and inspired howls of rage for showing a clear preference for Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike in some quarters, has managed to prove that her detractors had a damn fine point about her.

This same woman whined her ass off in the wake of this bitching saying the writing tie-in novels were OMG!SOHARD because she had to work under tight time constraints and at the specific direction of FOX and that none of her sterling work would ever be considered canon by Whedon and company.

And let's not forget: "You're hurting my saaaaaaaalessssssss. And FOX will stop publishing Buffy-tie ins if you don't keep buying badly written crap with the name Buffy on them!"


To which I replied: Shut up bitch! Tie-in novels, when parlayed right, can lead to a steady gig as a novelist writing original fiction, just ask Chris Golden or Peter David. There are people who'd cut off their left tit to have your opportunity. Fuck it. I'd cut off left tit for the chance. And, I should add, if some New York Times best-selling novelist, like, oh, Stephen King knocked on FOX's door and ask to write one, they wouldn't be panting at the chance, even to the point of letting SK write whatever the fuck he wanted, matching canon or what FOX wanted or not.


So, anway, here there be spoilers. Make sure you put down the liquid.

• The book ends with Spike/Buffy/Angel creating a "mystical love child."
  
• This is apparantly accomplished by the three of them holding hands, there is a mystical light, and then there is suddenly a baby.
  
• Buffy starts off as a bitch, makes some horrendous mistakes in the middle, but returns to being "Buffy" and being right by the end.
  

What. The. Fuck. Not even any dirty-dirty three way sex? Are you KIDDING me? This would cause the worst Mary Sue badfic author to blush crimson for even thinking of this. What on earth possessed anyone to think this was a GOOD idea? This is like setting up a super-duper Mary Sue in coming novels. And what the fuck ever happened with Buffy wanting to be her own person before being saddled with this kind of family responsibility? Especially since she got saddled with DAWN for reasons beyond her control.

Are we suddenly saying that Buffy ain't complete until she has her own Baaaaa-byyyyyyy!?! Fuck you. Fuck you. And fuck you.

And I didn't like Angel/Buffy OR Spike/Buffy, and I am completely insulted by Holder's obvious play at appeasing both fan factions.

Apparantly Xander has a really nice subplot detailing his work in Africa. Giles apparantly sends him there to find the source of the Slayer spirit, it details some of his adventures, and then he discovers startling news that evil continues to outweigh good in the world (even with all those brand-spaking-new Slayers running around) and that the next apocalypse will finish them all off.

Fuck it. I ain't even tempted. Nice as it is to get postive Xander in anything with an official Buffy imprint, not a chance am I setting fire to my money like this.

Anway, Willow is aparantly more grounded, Giles is back to being Giles again (whatever that means), Faith and Robin are together, and the true identity of "the Immortal" is revealed (I'd bet my rent on the idea that "the Immortal" and the First Evil are one and the same).



When I look at that, I weep for the amount of work I put into fanfic, which I give away for FREE!

If this is the kind of shit that gets published for tie-ins, someone clue me in on how I can jump on the gravy train, because I so would be all over this.

So, can anyone who's actually read the book spill the details on whether this is actually true? How about some details about Xander, Willow, and Giles, since their stories aren't inspiring 'roid rage in whoever has read the novel?

Comments

[szandara.livejournal.com]

I took an Authorized Buffy Tie-In out from the library once. Yes, I was embarrassed.

I made it about five pages in. The writing and characterization were so far below the level of most of the fanfic I had read, it was pathetic. This stuff would have gotten reamed at FF.net (AKA the Pit of Voles). My God What Crap.

This is an illustration of the principle, Why Buy the Syphilitic, Flatulent, Dying Cow when you can get Gallons of the Finest Cream (with or without added smut!) for Free?

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Wheeeeee! So with ya!

Someone needs to do a MSTK3000 on this, stat.

I, however, would much rather do other things than attempt this feat. Like getting a bikini wax.

[invisionary.livejournal.com]

Did you ever read this ficlet where the Immortal turned out to be Methos from Highlander? I really like that idea myself.

Oh, and on the subject of "Queen of the Slayers," I fully believe that it's every bit as awful as you said. I stumbled across these snippets today that someone posted on Usenet:

"Everywhere, heads dropped in mourning for lost comrades. Anya had died defending Andrew. And Spike had died defending them all. Spike... Buffy's throat tightened; tears welled. Her throat was so constricted that she couldn't swallow the knot of grief lodged there, could barely breathe. Spike was dead. He had elected to stay in the Hellmouth cavern, bursting into flame, when maybe, just maybe, he could have left with her and still saved the world. Nothing it it for him, no reason to do it except for love, or because it was the right thing to do, or both. What urged him toward self-sacrifice? His soul? His heart? Why was she fated to lose the ones she loved best? Oh, Spike..."

And:

[after there has been an accident with the school bus, spreading burning gasoline around]: "A tremendous burst of heat whooshed from the floor, scorching her feet. She heard nothing but a fierce thunder as she lurched forward. Flames erupted and shot along the side of the bus, then spewed from the floor. I'm going to die after all, she thought. I'm going to die like Spike. And maybe there was a small part of Buffy that welcomed death in the fire on the bus. A voice whispering about rest and welcome; and the chance to see Spike again, and make good on the words she had spoken to him in his last moments on this earth. The ones he had not believed. Maybe this fire was the literal baking of the cookie dough... But that couldn't be true. If she let herself die, Robin Wood would die, too, and maybe others. This was an emergency; lives were at stake; and she was the Slayer."

I'm not a Joss-basher by any means, but damn, he should be ashamed he let stuff like that get published under the BtVS name.

[booster17.livejournal.com]

If I had a bleeding eyes icon, I would be using it right now. Maybe this fire was the literal baking of the cookie dough... .

Yuck.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Oh. My. God.

I would cut off my own hands before writing shit like that.

Watch me as I re-write that last paragraph without trying:

Buffy lurched toward the front of the buss as flames erupted around her and the heated floor scorched her feet.

I'm going to die after all, she thought. I'm going to die in flames like Spike.

For a brief second, a small part of her welcomed death. The memory of rest and welcome she felt in her too-brief stint in Heaven beckoned like a mirage through the heat of the fire. Maybe she'd even finally embrace the people she had loved and lost, like her mother, Merrick, any number of friends that paid the price for her being the Slayer, and, yes, even Spike. Somehow he had ended up on that list of loved and lost, even if he refused to believe that she had come to truly loved him.

But, whispered a stronger mental voice, if she died, then Robin Wood and Rona would die with her, maybe even others trapped on this bus. Now wasn't the time for self-pity; now was the time to act. Lives were depending on it.

Wheeee! Complete with typos! Written in under a minute.

[booster17.livejournal.com]

Oh

My

God.

*checks calendar - it isn't the start of April after all*

And here's the secret of Peter David and Chris Golden - respect for all the characters. Not just their particular favs.

And speaking of Peter David, have you heard about the Spike comic he's writing? Due out in August.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Personally, I just want someone to write a decent Xander comic. With all the focus on Spike, and to a less extent Faith, and to an even lesser extent Giles, Angel, and Buffy, I'm almost certain that Xander is going to be disappeared from canon, only to resurface as butt-monkey extraordinare in brief appearances.

[silly-dan.livejournal.com]

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Thanks for altering us...I guess.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't even bother, because I'm really not into the Buffy tie-ins and have zero interest in reading any of them. But...this is so bad I couldn't help but share.

[jetpack-monkey.livejournal.com]

Dear God in .... wait, don't believe in him.

Dear Joss in Hollywood, WHY???

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

S'painful.

Still trying to get around the "mystical baby" by their perfect Triangular lurve.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

This is beyond bad writing. It's a crime against Buffy and all she stands for; Nancy Holder should be ashamed. I'm betting that Joss would tear out his hair if he read this crap.
It's also the reason I don't buy tie in books, and limit myself to fanfic that respects canon and characters, such as the fic you write. Plus, you can actually write, which is of the good. :)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

See me? See me screech? See me think seriously of issuing a challenge to translate this book into English?

I've never read the tie-ins, since JW has said he doesn't consider them canon and would never take them into account should any continuation occur (I think the chances of that with the original cast is receeding very quickly). Although he considers the comic books canon, I think he'd throw out anything specifically Buffy-related if it didn't fit with his new vision on the 'verse. Besides, there's plenty of good fic on my Flist which is FREE!

I'm just floored. If I were a Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike shipper I'd be even more furious than I am now. Okay, yeah, she clearly favors B/A and has said so, but if you do, than have the balls to stand by it. Not going to make the S/B shippers happy, but they weren't the only ones taking pot shots at her after the last book. Lots and lots of other people did as well.

But oh noes! She whines her ass off when she's challenged about the quality. This pretty much proves her detractors right, and boy, does it ever!

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

What? You mean you can't get pregnant by holding hands?

I don't even know what to say about this. Speechless.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I was under the impression that belly-button pushing was involved. This holding hands thing is news to me.

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

So basically she expects people to pay money for the type of horrible fanfic I can't even force myself to read for free online. Kinda glad I've stayed away from the Buffy tie-ins. Frightening!

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Enough to make you scream, ain't it?

[iyalode.livejournal.com]

As a fan, I'm annoyed. As a female, I feel insulted. The implications are stereotypical. No female is complete unless she has a child. Strong independant women are selfish and self-centred.

And don't even get me started on the 'holding hands' deal.

For the record, I have two children. Up until the age of 36 I was single, a homeowner and perfectly content to stay that way. The crap I had to put up though still lingers very strongly. Keeping in mind that the target audience for these books are supposedly teens, messages like this just piss me off.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

See? That's precisely why it pisses me off. Bad writing I can laugh off. Bad fanfic tie-in novels, no big deal.

But the message this book is sending to the pre-teen and teen audience? Makes me fucking furious.

[skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com]

The shippy appeasiness in Buffy tie-ins is nothing new.

A long, long, time ago (sometime during the first two seasons), I looked through one such book at the magazines/books section of the grocery store I most frequently shopped at during my last few years in Springfield. I forget the book's title, plot, and author, but the cheesy badfic factor that stuck with me ever since was the author's final sentence reveal that Xander and Willow were actually the reincarnated souls of lovers from around the time of (I think) the Salem witch trials, with the implication that, someday, eventually, Willow and Xander would get it right. Which, hey, fine if you're a diehard W/X'shipper. But I think the overwhelming evidence of show canon, dozens of tie-in books later, and Joss's decision that thousands of Xander-hating B/A and B/S shipping fans couldn't be wrong, so go to the back of the line and stay there forever, Xander Harris, falls rather heavily on the side of Joss never seriously intending a W/X ending.

Actually, the most annoying thing about the tie-in books has been just how closely to show canon they apparently have to hew. None of the later romantic relationships are challenged or questioned, the sidelining of Xander follows into the books, hell, I don't think any of them ignores an opportunity to paint Buffy as somebody who constantly thinks about/pines for one of her two pet vampires at some point.

As for Xander, I'm forced to agree with Liz that any continuation, however unlikely, with or about the original/surviving cast will only continue to paint Xander as a useless buttmonkey who only gets to shine whenever Buffy, Willow, or Dawn need a verbal pick-me-up. Short of NB getting rave reviews and/or possibly any sort of award for Kitchen Confidential or even possibly Unholy, I don't think believe Joss/ME considers NB a good enough actor for which to specifically write a storyline.

Which, of course, aggravates because to this day you can still hear stories about how wonderful ME thought JM and AH and (apparently) IL and TL were, but ME just could not think of anything to do with NB as Xander. Post-Chosen, you'd think that the idea of a guy who a)lost an eye, b)lost his long-time love interest, and c)lost his lifelong home, while almost everybody else around him gained something no matter how tangible or intangible, just might be fertile grounds for storytelling. At the very least, for character analysis. But to paraphrase Joss himself, acknowledging that stuff would just harsh the buzz of Buffy's happy ending.

As for Peter David, some of his obviously Buffy-influenced work suggests that he shares the dim view of Xander. I'm very much not tempted to check out his Spike comic whenever it comes out.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

*shrug*

A little harsh on Peter David, especially whatever he's done in Buffy is such a tiny portion of what he's written. His other books for tie-ins or original fiction certainly doesn't show the disdain you say he has for Xander-like characters.

And as for hewing to canon, Joss doesn't even consider them canon and pretty much dismisses the novels out of hand. I think the only tie-in you can safely call canon is Fray since he went out of his way to bring the Fray axe into the finale, but that's about it. I have no doubt that if (a hugely remote if, in my mind) any continuation takes place, Whedon would even throw out even Fray if it suited his purposes and the circumstances.

Although you are right, FOX does have some rigid guidelines for the tie-ins (number one, from what I understand, no character growth, which is WtF? Why bother? Even the tightly controlled B5 and Star Trek novels have character growth), there's no danger of them ever being incorporated into televised canon. Besides, only a subset of a subset of fans even bother reading them. Same with the comics. Neither is really worth getting annoyed about.

Although the hidden message of Holden's atrocity to the pre-teen and teen audince this book is aimed at (baaaabyyyyyyy) make me positively furious.

Besides, FOX has already killed the Angel line of novels. The Buffy books are either walking a thin line into being killed, or have already been killed baring a book or two from Holder. From what I understand, in this latest novel, the editing is so bad and the typos are so numerous, it's pretty clear that FOX is just letting the Buffy books die out.

[bastardsnow.livejournal.com]

I have read two Buffy tie-in books. One (I think it was called Monster Island) was actually not horrible. It deals with The Scourge from Angel S1, and some demon refugees, and a whole apocalypse thing. There was some B/A tension, but hell, there's *always* going to be some B/A tension. IIRC, B/S was nowhere in sight. All of the characters were, IMO treated fairly, and the writing was actually pretty good. The author, though not focusing on Xander, treated him with respect and dignity (the one specific scene I remember was him, on the beach, getting smacked on the head by some demon, falling into the water and then shooting up out of the water and stabbing the thing in the gut and killing it like *mad*).

The other book was actually Xander-centric... and it was pretty horrible. Set in Season 3, the characterizations were all off, the character voices were horrible, and the plot was contrived and just bad. Oz was one of the more talkative people. Thus ended my dalliance with BtVS novels.

That said, the book you have described here makes me, well... want to hurt people. I didn't like B/A (although I can stomach it) and I *really* didn't like B/S. A triangle with a mystical love child come from holding hands? Seems ridiculously out of character for *all* of them, and completely absurd.

God, and I thought some of the fanfic out there was bad...

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. Not good at all. *nod nod*

I've never dipped my toe into the novels and have no desire to do so. The only good thing is that Joss doesn't read the novels and pretty much dismisses their importance, so there's not danger of seeing any revival taking Holder's badfic vision into account.

But then again, I'm in the school of thought that a revival with the original cast is getting increasingly remote. If NB's, AH's, and DB's television careers take off the way SMG's and MT's movei careers have, you're looking at something 20 or 25 years down the road, at best.

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

The nearest things we have to an authorised post-chosen continuity are The Girl In Question and Fray, neither of which suggests anything like this is likely to happen.

Personally I think that the Slayers are going to win a VERY decisive victory in the relatively near future, because that's what Joss Whedon said in Fray; all demons were wiped out in the 21st century. My guess is that Willow will have a BIG hand in this. The victory is so decisive that no other girl needs to be Chosen for hundreds of years. After that I suspect we go back to "one girl in every generation" or whatever, and that River is her generation's Chosen One. All well and good, and none of it needing mystic baby shit.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. I really don't bother with the tie-ins simply because Joss Whedon dismisses them out of hand. They're a FOX construct to keep the property alive, although, from what I understand, there won't be any new Angel books and the Buffy books are on a thin thread at best (although I've heard that FOX has killed or plans on killing the Buffy tie-ins).

But, as I pointed out, if you got some NYT best-selling novelist knocking on FOX's door wanting to write a Buffy-centric novel, even if it focused on an unpopular character, ain't no way they'd say no.

[hpchick.livejournal.com]

I heard that, even though Xander has a substantial plot in this book, he is still basically characterized as the comic relief. Damn! When I heard that Xander had his own plot in this book, I was kind of excited.

I kind of liked the Gatekeeper Trilogy. It's been a while since I read them, so I don't remember how well written they were, but Xander had a good storyline.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I've heard the Gatekeeper Trilogy is one of the better ones with the Old Skool Scoobies, along with Pretty Maids in a Row, and Tales of the Slayer. Beyond that? Not so good. The only tie-in I've flipped through was one that supposedly took place sometime during S6 (I think) that involved something about an evil video game sucking people's minds, or something. Suddenly, Xander has a bunch of game-head friends that he hangs with (okay) and that he's one of the ones that gets brain-sucked (hunh)? The characterization was somewhat iffy at best.

[othercat.livejournal.com]

Ack! This, this is why I don't read Tie-in novels anymore...Okay, I lie, I'll read Babylon 5 tie-ins, but nothing else.

The Immortal is a nearly indestructible Neanderthal. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but JMS has tight control over what's allowed in the books and has penned a few himself. The Star Trek novels, to a lesser extent, can be considered somewhat canon since Paramount keeps a tight rein over those as well (even if they can vary in quality). Some of Star Treks are actually pretty good in their own right (I've read a few that are pretty amazing, like "The Infinite Reflection," which works despite some fanficcish passages). I understand the DS9 tie-ins are really good and actually add depth to the characterization of cannon characters (Jake and Ezri especially). Since all the DS9 notels take place after the series finale, the characters are allowed to *gasp* grow and change. I've also heard that (surprisingly) the Pathways series books that tie into Voyager, especially the ones that focus on Tom Paris, are also pretty decent.

But yeah, on the whole? Tie-in novels really aren't that good. Best to avoid them, really.

[humbleminion.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's laughably appalling enough even to make me snort, and over ten years of reading Star Wars tie-ins has left my soul as leathery and scarred as rhino hide. I'm actually impressed, in a sick kind of way.

[keith5by5.livejournal.com]

Xander treated with respect in a tie-in book? To qoute the late, great Buffy Holly:-

"That'll be the Day"

As for the rest. Who in the hell thought that would be a good idea?
Was it so both Spike and Angel got access to the blessed Buffy?

And Buffy tie-in books? They're utter crap, must be polished off in a week for the quality of some and the complete lack of character development and plot development, yet provide a steady income for the authors lucky enough to be chosen.

I've read some Star Wars ones and at least there's some originality of plot in some.

[roo2.livejournal.com]

What I find entertaining is that there are two reviews at Amazon, and both give it four stars. One even says "Ms. Holder is, however, demonstrating a growing respect for the intelligence of her readers. As she asks more of us with each book, she'll find us smarter than she imagines." Then the person who wrote the review and presumably read the book goes on to talk about "Zander" and his adventures in Africa. Maybe it's Nancy Holder's mom? :-)

[rachelmap.livejournal.com]

Oh bleah. I don't care that Xander finally gets a good sub-plot. I'll keep reading your Xander fic and I'll even write my own before I'll read what she's done to Buffy, Angel and Spike. Why does Buffy have to wind up with any of these guys? She's over them, they're over her, and now they can finally all just be friends.

[(Anonymous)]

You were asking for Xander details from the book so here they are. Spoilers of course.



Xander's subplot is actually pretty small. He's barely in Africa, just teleports in and out. He meets the guys who made the First Slayer and chats them up. They give him a souped up version of his soldier memories and a magic stick, which later gets broken. There's some hints of sparkage between him and the First Slayer which I thought was bizarre.

He gets attacked on the Ghost Roads and gets rescued by an army of dead slayers. Nikki Woods specifically rescues him and there's a sort of funny bit where Xander keeps asking her if she has a message for Robin, and she keeps saying no she doesn't. He gets to meet Angel Tara and Angel Anya, gets a parting smooch from Angel Anya. Angel Tara lets him know that she's cool with Willow and Kennedy. Angel Tara gives him a magic kiss which he's to pass on to Willow to awaken her from a coma. This works but makes Willow wake up in Kennedy's arms, which I thought was confusing.

The whole Xander/First Slayer thing seems odd. But it's just a bit, maybe I'm misreading it. She likes to push her forehead against his, stare into his eyes and growl. Not sure what that means. But the whole Xander part is very small, like one chapter.