liz_marcs | 10...9...8...7.... *sticks fingers in ears*

Current Mood: restless

10...9...8...7.... sticks fingers in ears

You know, doing this was not the smartest thing I've ever done:

1) Sneak on to a certain character-centric, het-only, wanktastic, crossover hell of a fanfic Yahoo Group at work because it's been a week since you beat yourself over the head with a two-by-four and your inner masochist needed to be fed.

2) See the bad Fanfiction Dot Net summaries from fanfic stories, you know the ones...the ones like you see here that really gives all shippers (and not just writers in this particular ship) a bad name.

3) Snicker in amusement because, yeah, they are pretty bad.

4) Make the huuuuuuuuge mistake of reading the responses because you're hoping for more random amusement.

4) Note the increasingly self-righteous tone as people respond.

5) Get annoyed with a certain character-centric, het-only, wanktastic, crossover hell of a fanfic Yahoo Group for being all, "Beam? What Beam? I ain't got no Beam in my eye!" Because, you know, only the best post to this group.

6) Do something stupid by pointing this fact out, specifically using the words "crossovers that make no sense", "Xander as Marty Stu", and "Hey, you know people are laughing at you guys too for your summaries, right?"

7) Hit send.

8) Realize that you really, really shouldn't have done that.

9) Blame the fact that you've been working in PowerPOINT all day for your lapse in sanity.

10) Hide under desk and wait for list-wide explosion of wank that you didn't mean to start.

11) You expect that deciding whether or not to leave this certain character-centric, het-only, wanktastic, crossover hell of a fanfic Yahoo Group is going to be moot. Understand that you will be so completely banned before this is over that it won't be funny.

12) So, how was your day?

Anyway, I've been hiding away from my computer all day yesterday. *hic* So thank you ALL for the birthday wishes! *grins*

Although I was doing research-y things yesterday regarding the New Fic That's Eating My Brain, so, expect something rantish....

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What I like are the fics that have summaries like this:

Such and such characters are soulmates -- will they make it work, or will Event/Character Y get between them?

As though the author could even imagine a scenario that is not HS Hall Locker Poster Pin-up version of events...

Which happens in Every. Single. Fandom. Seriously.

What annoyed me in this case was that people were acting like it only happened with this particular ship and in this particular fandom. GrRrRrRrRr.

What annoyed me in this case was that people were acting like it only happened with this particular ship and in this particular fandom. GrRrRrRrRr.

I really wish they just wouldn't read the fics or ships they don't like. Why do they feel the way to belittle people (not discuss but abuse)? It's a tv program people!

Maybe Ten and his gang only have the Xanderzone in their life.

It's not nice to troll like that, even if I'd like to see what you wrote....

[First you must imagine high-school-like sniggering about how stoooooopid writers in this particular ship are. Announcement of how "we-so-great" and "wouldn't stoop to that."]

[Cue me being annoyed because, unh, yes you do.]

Someone finally points this out. I chime in.

>So wisely spaketh "raistlinm1" <raistlinm1@a...>:
>
> I think everyone is starved for ideas. How many
> crossovers are on this list? By definition those
> are not new ideas, they're two old ideas that
> become a new idea, not exactly the same. I'm
> only trying to point out that everyone has their
> hack moments, some people have longer moments
> than others.

*applause from the peanut gallery*

No offense guys, but I've heard the same snickering from other sites regarding the sheer number of crossovers on this list that make zero
sense whatsoever.

I'm just saying that hackdom and Mary Sueism is not a disease that's relegated to B/S stories or BtVS in particular. Check out FanWank on JournalFen if you don't believe me, or Fanfic Hate on Live Journal if you need further proof.

There are plenty of people and communities who rip apart hacktacular fanfic on a regular basis and, trust me when I tell you, stories like those cited by the OP don't even merit a blip beyond FF.net. Which is too bad because FF.net's reputation has hurt people in the past. There are good stories on FF.net that have simply gotten missed or lost
because of the sea of sludge.

And also, most of these fengurls are *laughed at* by quite a few of the older and better Spuffy writers who've made a good effort in writing their own stories. Hell, I would say these kids really aren't getting any love anywhere (although most of them are now drifting into LoTR and HH fandom....which is causing all sorts of angst).

However, they will have their defenders. I remember when HonorH was running a canon workshop at WriterCon in July and she stated outright that these human AUs should *not* be considered BtVS fanfic and she got quite the verbal beating in response by a small, but vocal minority. Most of the people there *agreed* with her.

What I'm trying to say: bringing up these summaries from FF.net? You're shooting fish in a barrel. Most people (including Spuffies) would agree with you.

However, the superior snotty tone from some quarters does kind of bother me, so...

Laugh not, lest ye be laughed at. There are some pretty frightening story summaries from authors on this very list that would get the same derisive laughter from people outside of this community.

I'm just sayin': It all comes down to your audience. Those writers are speaking to a specific audience, and you're not it. The authors here
with the...ummmm...insano, make-no-sense-to-me, Xander-as-Mary-Stu crossovers are likewise writing to a specific audience, and that audience is not to people off-list.

Just sayin' dudes and dudettes.

Liz ;)

This list must be very wank-tastic if this is considered incendiary.

Heck, Xander-Stu-fic is in such a corner at this point, that it didn't even rise low enough in esteem to get wanked at Fanfic_Hate. Despite how atrocious the Journey-verse is. (At least according to summaries, since I haven't read that.)

*blinks*

Oh, come on! Surely there was more than that? Surely people can't get upset by a reasoned appeal to logic? Can they?

Booster
Shaking his head

Tenhawk got a new story out uh?

And...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

If he did, it wasn't on the XZ... but as ever, Ten defended the... uh... well, i'm trying to come up with a nicer word, but I can't think of one, so we'll just go with: douchebags who think that Tenhawk is God Above All and High-And-Mighty Ruler of all that is fic.

I get the feeling that if he actually *read* most of what is posted to the list (he's as much as said that he doesn't) then he might be of a different opinion. Or I could just be giving him too much credit.

My guess is that since he's replied, a significant portion of the list will just consider that topic closed, and unless Liz (for whatever reason or sickness that may enter her mind) decides to respond again... it'll be done. Or I could just be giving the list too much credit.

Much too much credit.

Reason I left the group was Tenhawk's high-handed behaviour and flaming of those who dare to disagree with him. For a guy who says he hasn't even watched all the episodes he sure sets himself as god of all he surveys.

I don't read or like slash, but I applaud Sho for allowing it on her site.

I don't like B\X or W\X but I wouldn't blast someone for writing it, I'd just ignore it.

When I originally enjoyed the Xanderzone I enjoyed the debates, unfortunately all too often they turn into flame wars (which I was guilty of being dragged into and was polluting my taste for writing). It's a shame the likes of Skippcomet, 3D, White Werewolf, and Tenhawk can't let people to like or dislike chars if they chose. Nobody forces them to read people's stuff they don't like.

BTW congrats on the coffee series. Very witty and innovative.

Thanks! I very much enjoy writing the Coffee series, and I'm glad you enjoy reading it.

And I gotta agree on the early debate stuff. It used to be fun. It used to be interesting, engaging, a community where one could feel comfortable voicing their opinion. Now? Not so much. I happen to enjoy Spike's character Pre-S6 (Yeah, he was a bastard and a liar and a traitor and evil and all sorts of other bad things... but he was *fun*). If I said something good about Spike on the list? Reaction would probably go through the roof. Guh. Whatever, don't need the hassle. I'll just post my stories and try to let the rest of it lie.

-Mark

Yeah, I'd do the same except for a lack of maturity on my part. I won't start a fight, but if I see someone acting like a jerk I have to jump in.

And every day one of the Unholy Six acts like an ass.

I agree with you on Spike (although I'd go pre S5 rather than S6). I also like Angel on his own series, but I wouldn't dare have an opinion on the Xanderzone that any other male had merit other than Xander.

But I do wish Liz would stop posting these hints about what's happening. I get all curious.

BTW I especially liked Willow teasing Faith about having a crush. Very funny.

lol. You can thank Drake for the teasing bit. I was going to have teasing, but it was much, much more mild than that. Drake jokingly suggested the line, and I just had to use it. It was too perfect.

I, too, like Angel on his own series. He got... what was it... oh! A personality.

And dude, somebody just recently ripped into Giles for treating Xander differently than Willow in S2, specifically, in relation to the love spell... I'm sitting here thinking "Well, what, Giles was supposed to tell him 'You haven't studied any magic at all, EVER, and you've had a witch you know to be abusing her power cast a spell for you that went wrong and affected the entire town INCLUDING MY GIRLFRIEND. Good show!'"

Guh. I repeat: guh.

And now, I think, I shall stop hijacking Liz's LJ, before I get even more irked.

-Mark

I could just see Willow teasing Faith like that, singing, laughed my ass off.

Yep, Angel got a personality, cared about other humans that he initally didn't like (Wes, Faith, Cordy, and Gunn), and tried to help people. Seemed like a decent guy to me.

...Never mind.

--skippcomet

Skippcomet? Really?
The guy post like once a month, and then hardly a couple of lines.
Can't remember him being in any brawls.

Are you sure you don't mean the infamous silveragent?

Maligo.

Silveragent is amongst the worst. But Skippcomet seems to pick three or four writers he doesn't agree with and spend his time telling them why their stuff is rubbish.

He could save himself a lot of time by just not reading them.

Correction, I don't think he reads any of them.

There is one person taking him on about his stance that "crossovers are writing tools," by pointing out that on this list that "crossovers are the point" and, ergo, must be considered actual plot. As in *bad* plot.

I have to agree with the challenger here. Near as I can tell, Journeyverse is literally cross-over hell. And a lot of the stories pretty much hinge on the cross-over as opposed to actual plot and characterization.

It'll be interesting to see if Ten responds to it. I suspect this wank will actually die out, unless one of the list cranks starts with the personal attacks again.

I'm actually tempted to keep going because it is evolving into an actual interesting discussion. Or at least, one that's near and dear to my heart.

Well I like crossovers, and are in the middle of writing a multi-crossover of my own. My problem with the JVerse is characterisation, specifically of Xander:-

1. Every woman he meets wants him in bed (when was Xander a sex-god, he was mr. average with an extra-ordinary heart).
2. Every crossover defers to him.
3. He's got the power to match a Slayer and he's getting stronger.

Mary-Stued to the MAX.

Oh, and throw in a double-standard about sex relating to Faith and Xander (Xander's allowed to have sex even though he's under-age while Faith's not. Pesumably because he's male).

A few months ago, I had a brief e-mail exchange with Tenhawk about the overabundance of crossovers on the list. Ten admitted that the crossover was more often than not used as a writer's crutch. Instead of creating original characters with original histories, personalities, motivations, or coming up with original situations, crossovers bring in ready-made characters with ready-made histories, etc.

One of the problems with crossovers is that a lot of writers don't seem able to balance them out. As Keith points out, a lot of them seem to have one side defer to, or be subsumed by, the other. I've read only some of Ten's work, but more often than not, the crossovered characters/situation are there to shore up SuperXander. (Of course, a factor there is that, well, Ten seems wholy uninterested in writing about a Xander who even somewhat resembles the character on the show. Ten seems interested only in transforming Xander into a standalone, not-a-supporting-character-to-Buffy, lone hero who has to strike off on his own.)

Another problem with crossovers is that as time has gone by, some crossovers have been done to death, and some writers seem to go out of their way to find some obscure show, movie, book, comic, etc., that hasn't been used a crossover before in order to be original. This collides with the problem of writers assuming that anybody who reads their story is as intimately knowledgabe about the crossover as they are and thus they don't have to try to explain in the story who the various parties are. This is especially true with anime crossovers -- too many writers of this genre assume that everybody who might possibly come across their story is as big an anime fan as they are and knows all about it.

And let's not even get into the AU "Halloween" fics where the whole plot is: "Make subtle hints about the different costume Xander chooses at Ethan's shop. End the story with Xander transformed into Voltron/Vampire Hunter D/Jack the Ripper/The Pretender/Hawkeye Pierce/The Punisher/etc." Those stories are about nothing BUT the crossover.

Some crossovers just...don't work. Remember, in the 90's, Marvel and Archie Comics did a crossover with The Punisher and Archie. *shudder*

*rolls eyes* When doesn't he.

Considering that I actually *write* for a living, I don't see how you can actually write as many different stories as he does at the same time. I've managed to write two stories at the same time, but even then my brain hurt.

Then again, I've often suspected that Ten uses the "search and replace" method to writing.

His Xander never seems to vary does he?

Happy Birthday, you wonderful fanfic writing Building and Loan, you! [/George!Bailey]

Hit send.

....oh, dear.

hit send. *laughs* you probably shouldn't have done that but I'm fairly sure I know what group it is. The one where every couple of weeks I myself have to go peek and go "yeah, it is that bad..." despite the occasional gem amidst all the wankage and junk.

And happy belated birthday to you.

Thank you, to one of the few crossover writers where I positively love your stories.

I always get a giggle from your HL/BtVS drabbles. And your SG-1/BtVS stories. And...you are the one writing the Snape-as-Xander's-dad one, right? That one had me hoooooooowling with laughter.

I missed your birthday? *headdesk* I'm sorry! Happy Birthday!

And I missed yet another flame-war on that list? Not sorry. *grin*

(btw, I did get your email with the essay - Outlook's been playing silly buggers all week so I've kinda not been able to reply or post it to the site yet. It's much appreciated and will be on the site as soon as I stop swearing at Microsoft!

Actually, the response to your post seems to be pretty mild so far. We'll have to see if it stays that way.

But yeah, I agree that a group with as many improbably crossover and Marty-Stu Xander fics as the XZ laughing at another group of authors is... ironic, to say the least.

But hey, it's not all like that. There were a couple of high-school era, normal Xander fics posted there a couple of days ago (Plus, one of them was even W/X, so yay!... sorry, I digress). So there seems to be some diversity there, at least.

Happy birthday! Belated, but I was mostly hiding from the computer yesterday too... although it doesn't sound as though I had as much fun as you!

Hitting send? ::shakes head:: If it's the list I surmise it is from the comments, I joined a while ago and lurked for about three days before quitting. I'm sure there are very nice people there on the list, but I just couldn't stick it out.

Happy Birthday!

I <3 you Liz for your smackdowns =)

I'm still considering setting up a service to filter out any fic posts to that list and forwarding it to email... It'll be like Special Notices, and all feedback can be sent directly to the author rather than "Look at me I'm posting feedback! Look Look Everyone! Feedback! Eh!?" style feedback =)

As for being banned, I highly doubt it =) If you continue to post your stories, and ignore the more wanktastic arguments, they can't pull together enough reason to rate banning.

*giggles* Now I remember why I don't post anything BtVS-related at Ff.net. Of course, wank comes in every 'ship and fandom, but BtVS attracts some of the weirdest people at that site. Which is good by me, because it leaves the sane people for the anime community. *G* Well, most of them anyway.

I actually just clicked 'reply' to wish you a happy belated birthday and am too sleepy to make sense of your post (numbers confuse me. Never accept to go over the year's receipt in ONE week.) So, if the first parragraph doesn't have anything to do with your post - and I suspect it doesn't - now you know why.

Happy Belated Birthday!

But now I'm reminded of that Buffy-Inuyasha crossover. *snickers*

Happy belated birthday from a lurker who's a big fan. :)

And it looks like "duck-and-cover" won't be needed. Things are staying surprisingly civil on the list, at least in regards to responses to your post. I checked the calendar and the monthly wank-fest is scheduled for later this month. ;)

-Justin

Sorry to laugh but that is just hilarious. :) Go you! Poke the nasty little talentless hornet nest some more...

Just wanted to say Happy Birthday and WAY TO GO..you rock!!!!

Firstly, happy birthday, from someone who doesn't really know you at all! :)

Secondly, you realise that this entry prompted me to subscribe to The Yahoo Group That Must Not Be Named, just to see what all the fuss was about? I'm rather disappointed. I was hoping for an entertaining flamewar, where the person who wrote Journey (that was the first ever piece of Xander-centric fic I ever read, so give me credit for reading a second!) got richly deserved strips torn off him...

I'm rather disappointed. I was hoping for an entertaining flamewar, where the person who wrote Journey (that was the first ever piece of Xander-centric fic I ever read, so give me credit for reading a second!) got richly deserved strips torn off him...

You're not allowed to question god!

Oh wait, Tenhawk isn't god, he and his disciples just think he is.

Hit Send!?!

*Slaps Liz's Hand Away from the Keyboard*

No! Bad Liz! You know you shouldn't bait the Xander-Stu wankers! Bad, bad, bad Liz!

*shakes head*

Liz, Liz, Liz....will you never learn?

Actually it's not that bad...well the reactions to your posts have died down. Now it's back to "BS sucks", "He's evil", "Narrow-minded", "But he has a SOUL now", blah, blah, blah........ Some of it is actually a fair and intelligent discussion.

I love it when someone tries to appear open-minded and reasonable, but if you actually read his post it's basically saying, "You have every right to have your own opinion. It's wrong, because it differs from my opinion, but you have every right to have it."

Well, isn't that the definition of being open minded. I mean, you don't have to agree with a person to be open minded. For all we know the person may have given the matter thought and come to a decision on it. I don't think a person would want to stay open minded forever because then you don't have any convictions. At least that's what I always figured.

BTW, if my opinions about being open minded differ from your opinions about being open minded, how are we to react while still being open minded? ;)

JimboS, also, I'm not on LiveJournal, so sorry this is anonymous.

Happy Birthday anyway!

Happy belated! *kicks LJ's notification for not working*

I don't see anything incendiary in what you wrote. But then, I'm not on that list, and I've started flame wars with less, so my judgement is likely poor. >_<;;

Heh -- I wouldn't say Tenhawk was a god, but I do have to admit when I first read his fics, I liked them. ^^

Tenhawk was the first person I read that focused on Xander. And I like some of his ideas -- the Archon one for example. Other than that, it's a mind-numbing but fun read... it's like watching one of those James Bond movies. Actually his plots reminds me of Jeffrey "Oneshot" Wong's Just Won't Die series (although JWD deals with Ranma and crossovers -- and thankfully, his protagonist is nowhere near as sexist as Wong's interpretation of Ranma).

but, happy belated birthday from me. ^_^

Thanks to everyone here for the free entertainment.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

10...9...8...7.... *sticks fingers in ears*

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Well That Was Stupid

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Okay, I can talk about this.

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Your Natal Day!

HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

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Muhahaha!

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10...9...8...7.... sticks fingers in ears