Does this happen for anyone else?

[liz_marcs]

You see a fanfic with potential, but it's got a big grammar problem.

You politely point out grammar problem to writer.

Writer says there's a reason for it.

You politely explain that there are other ways to accomplish what they think they're accomplishing and that this grammar problem will drive away potential readers.

Writer pulls the "well, as fanfic writers and professional writers, we do things for art..." card.

In this not-so-hypothetical situation, my response always tends to be as follows:

• Grit teeth
  
  
• Refrain from pointing out that I actually am a professional writer who's been paid for her output since high school and that I damn well know what I'm talking about
  
  
• Physically sit on hands to prevent myself from typing just that
  

Yeah...

I just don't get it when people pull that card. I really don't. Especially since no one really knows who they're talking to when they say something that condescending in a response. For all the correspondent knows, the person pointing out the problem could be a NYT Best Selling Author hiding behind a Nom de Internet.

Granted, I'm not a NYT Best Selling Author, but I'm most certainly have been and am currently being published in various venues and media.

Jesus. I wouldn't pull that card on someone online, especially over fanfic.

I suppose that's why it annoys the fuck out of me when someone pulls it on me. It's like this big red, shiny button that too many people like to press over the stupidest shit.

And because I don't want to start wank, I have to get up and walk away from the computer for 5 minutes.

Thank you for letting me vent, y'all.

Comments

[waddis.livejournal.com]

What kind of grammar problem is this?

I use sentence fragment sequences for dramatic effect, but I certainly don't like the idea of it rubbing someone the wrong way.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It wasn't you. And when it comes to dialogue and dramatic effect, I'm like the fragment queen.

This was someone who is writing a fic where one of the characters is a child. All of the child's dialogue is written in all lower case letters. No capital letters. At all.

It hurts my eyeballs to look at.

[mrs-sweetpeach.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. :-)

(And not that I've written anything in ages, but I'd be thrilled to pieces to receive fb from you.)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Hey, I haven't written much either fanfic-wise lately either.

It's been one of those busy years, I guess.

[ebony14.livejournal.com]

What "card" are you referring to? Is that some mistaken belief that, because this isn't a professionally produced piece of work, it can be sloppy and full of mistakes? That's moronic. Just because it isn't a professional document doesn't mean you can't take pride in producing it in a professional manner. As for using grammatical mistakes for an effect in writing, that can only be considered effective if it has something to contrast against.

[m-mcgregor.livejournal.com]

I'm confused by this too. If that's the argument, then that's when I tend to say, "Oh, okay, I thought you were trying to be a writer. Nevermind."

Although with a LOT more sarcasm.

[akzseinga.livejournal.com]

God, I hate it. And, even more, I hate that people who pull that card tend to say that we - and by we I mean people who don't agree with author - just don't understand that we are facing genius who is above such petty little thing like grammar.

Or that's just my experience ;)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

*ding ding ding*

That was kind of the vibe I was getting in this case.

[medie]

*facepalm*

See, me, when faced with that, I go "yes, and when I encounter professional authors like that, I don't buy their work."

(I made it about one paragraph into The Da Vinci Code before dropping it back onto the library shelf and walking off sputtering about beta readers and editors with no damn eyes. It is probably a VERY good thing I have not touched Twilight *G*)

Besides, these days, Paris Hilton, her dog, and Tori Spelling are professional 'authors' this is not a good card for grammar challenged fen to be throwing around.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I just backed away because I honestly didn't trust my response.

If my big, red shiny button hadn't been pushed, I would've point out that there isn't a copy editor on the planet that would be at all okay within consistently writing a child's dialogue in lower case. That puppy would've been blue-penciled and sent back to the writing with orders to fix it.

Then again, considering some of the quickie novels that get out there, I really do wonder if copy editors are even employed by publishing houses anymore. It always terrifies me to realize that The Da Vinci Code and Twilight were possibly worse before the publishing house got their hands on the manuscripts.

[kor27.livejournal.com]

This particular behavior is one I've seen in a huge number of different circumstances.

When someone responds to pretty much anything with "I'm a professional, I know what I'm doing," I know it's time to start running the other way...

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

"Trust me! I know what I'm doing!" – Sledge Hammer

Yeah, I've seen it used in a number of circumstances. In some cases, it's proper (i.e., when someone's asking for help and you offer and explain your expertise), but this was a case of someone who's pulling the card because they don't like what someone had to say..

[altyronsmaker.livejournal.com]

Bah. You'd think people would want the info on how to be better. But um, no. I backed out of at least four SPN Big Bang stories because of atrocious grammar. Stories in which the authors claimed to have had a beta. I shake my head at that then. Bad betas suck.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I know that last year when my company was looking for a full-time writer, my department head spent months trying to find someone who could type simple declarative sentence, let alone someone who could pass our ridiculously easy writing test.

Unfortunately, we go hit by a hiring freezing so we didn't wind up hiring anyone. Of course, this was three months after my boss started the job search.

I saw some of those writing tests. I was utterly flabbergasted by the horror. And this is stuff that's in the professional realm. I think at some point I said to myself, "Self. I've seen better-written fanfic."

What makes it frustrating in this case is that the story could have real potential (I have other issues with it, not just the grammar, but if the grammar had been good I'd have been willing to give it a shot). Then again, I suspect I'm not the target audience.

[4thdixiechick.livejournal.com]

I just can't read fan-fiction with a lot of grammar errors, at least when the author doesn't care. I've taught middle school for over 10 years, and I have a pretty good sense of what errors are made by students (or writers) with a learning disability, or by students (or writers) who are still learning English. I have also seen errors by writers who just don't care, even after I offer to beta-read for grammar. I have patience for the first and second groups, and none for the third group. I just stop reading the stories.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Yeah. To be honest I haven't been reading a lot of fanfic lately, although that's more because I've been busy and less because of grammar issues.

But there's always a certain amount of grammar suck in them thar stories, fanfic and professional publication both.

[mara-sho.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the problem is that when one points these things out to some writers their back goes up straight away and they go into a hyper-defensive mode. Some of the time it seems like some of these writers think they are the best thing since sliced bread, when in fact they're just petulant self-obsessed fic writers who could maybe *be* someone with a boost of self confidence. I say this knowing full well i'm one tiny step away from what i'm talking about.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I get needing a self-confidence boost, but there's a difference I think between deserved and not deserved.

I'm talking in general, not the specific example that set me off, by the way.

If, for example, someone is consistently bad with grammar or, in the case of that infamous BNF in Buffy fandom a few years ago, wouldn't even bother doing basic historical research even though everything she wrote was a "historical slash romance." How is it helping someone by not gently pointing out that they've got a problem?

Sure, it's criticism and no one likes to hear criticism, but if, for example, you're someone who's constantly mixing up "its" and "it's" imagine how many people saw that and hit the back button without saying anything. Those people think that you (hypothetical you) are an idiot, but because they didn't say anything they're not helping you either.

The person who takes the time to at least drop a line saying, "I want to read your story and I want to enjoy it, but you keep mixing up 'it's' and 'its'. I thought I'd say something because you might be driving away potential readers without realizing it." Is the person who's out to help you and build your self-confidence.

I'm just sayin'...

[arkady.livejournal.com]

I've seen Mercedes Lackey put the smackdown on someone in, of all places, a ball-jointed doll forum. There was no real reason for it other than snobbery and wankery. *shakes head* I think some people just like to make themselves feel like a big fish in a little pond.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Ahahahahaahahaha! Now that I'd like to have seen.

Then again, Mercedes Lackey can get away with it because, well, she's Mercedes Lackey. Me...not so much. If I tried to do something like that, there's be wank.

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

IME, pointing out grammar or usage errors in the writing of someone you don't know well is kind of like congratulating a woman who appears to be pregnant. It's well meant, but the chance of it going wrong is just too great to make it worthwhile.

--Willowgreen, who has been both perpetrator and victim in the "apparent pregnancy" scenario.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

But if someone asks you what you think, it is doing no favor to say "oh, it's just lovely if it looks like it was written by a 10th-grader who's flunking English. Because not only does it ignore the obvious mistakes, you don't know that someone won't go off and say, "X says my writing is just lovely."

[nothorse.livejournal.com]

Thing is, I'm always unsure of my grammar and my phrasing, given that english is not my native language. Getting comments that point out flaws might make me defensive for a moment or two, but then I enjoy and treasure them, because they tell me that somebody has read my story with open eyes and wants to make it better.

In my native language I have written a story with intentional unusual to bad grammar, incomplete sentences and awkward phrasing, because it was intended to read as a verbatim transcript of gossiping over a cup of coffee. But there I hope I made it clear enough to the reader to understand what I was doing. Which is a different thing to what you described. I think.

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

If you're writing in ESL, you're way past what I sometimes think is half the US population, who doesn't seem able to write coherently in their native language. I can ask for directions to the loo and order bread, cheese, and wine in a couple of other languages, but that's about it. Kudos to you polyglots!

[charliesmum.livejournal.com]

I like to pull the 'You need to know how to follow the rule properly before you can break it properly' card when that happens (even if in the privacy of my own head) and also the 'edgy, UR doin it wrong' card. :)

[dr-pipe.livejournal.com]

i"m deng tes 4 phun + eye dont kar

[lee-rowan.livejournal.com]

Funny you came up with this topic--I'm working on this subject for the "back to basics" blog at Metawriter. I'm weary of special snowflakes who respond to a mention of misplaced apostrophes with a flouncing, "Well, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy my story!" It's hard not to respond with "Well, I might have if I could have endured reading it."

[jimpage363.livejournal.com]

There, there. Maybe her reaction is the same as a cat when it's missed its jump: I meant to do that!

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

You politely point out grammar problem to writer.

Writer says there's a reason for it.

That's the point where I usually back out. If the person actually meant to do that, all righty. I don't really have time to wrangle with them over bad choices if they don't want input. And if the person is being defensive, then they're not in a place where the criticism will be useful to them, and hence the interaction won't be useful for me.

Of course, if I'm just fixin' on catching someone out, I might push them harder, but that's not really a scenario for constructive criticism, right?

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean.

[dr-pipe.livejournal.com]

Every author is free to write as crazily as they like, as far as I'm concerned. If everyone starts thinking it's a good idea and emulating them, their style will become an influence on the evolution of the language and end up becoming "proper grammar" in time. If not, people will just get annoyed and stop reading their work.

I think it's perfectly noble of you to try to help them maximize their readership with grammatical pointers, but if they don't want to do it that way, they'll either lose readers or they won't, and they will be the only person affected. I see no reason to be concerned or worked up over it... Maybe I'm just a grammatical free spirit.