Shipper Wars and Why They Suck

[liz_marcs]

Every once in awhile I nip into Fandom_Wank, mostly because I’m easily amused, but also because I’m fascinated with the tinfoil hat end of fandom.

Needless to say, there’s a massive wank going on right now about BtVS/AtS and shipper warfare.

It starts with wardrums coming from the Buffy-Angel shippers.

*headdesk*

Followed by chest beating among po’ widdle Buffy-Spike shippers.

*headdesk* *headdesk*






Now, seriously: The original post getting wanked (Buffy-Spike shippers suck the big one! And they’re crazy!) was posted on a private, members-only board.

Ill-advised? Yes. Mean spirited? Most certainly. Exhibiting an utter lack of diplomacy? You bet. A perfect example of someone who wears a tinfoil hat? Most definitely.

The point is: the original post was on a private, members-only board geared to Buffy-Angel fans, which means that there is absolutely no good reason for any other shipper group to get their nose out of joint.

Traditionally, members-only boards are supposed to be “safe havens” for people to bitch, moan, be bitter, and generally unload the shit from their brains. I say traditionally that’s the case because everyone knows that “safe havens” are not at all safe. You can pull up the drawbridge all you want, but people who disagree with you can still find an offending post if they really want to be offended.

And it seems to me that there a whole lotta people out there who not only want to be offended, but are easily offended to boot.

Well, as it turns out, this particular post got emailed to people the Spike-Buffy camp, who then publicly posted it and then bitched loud and long because the other guys were being soooooooo meeeeeaaaaaan.

Me: So let me get this straight…someone who wasn’t a Buffy-Angel fan lurks on a Buffy-Angel members-only board, finds a post that offends their delicate sensibilities, and then emails it to their buddies so it can be aired in public and everyone in the Buffy-Angel and Buffy-Spike camps get their panties in a twist?

What are you people? 12?

Why the hell do Buffy-Spike fans care if some Buffy-Angel fans spout off on a private message board that is clearly marked for Buffy-Angel fans? Why make a big drama over it? I’ve read some equally evil things about Buffy-Angel fans on Buffy-Spike fanboards that resulted in equally wanky outcomes. You need a damn scorecard to keep track of all the bombs that have been launched from one camp into the other camp.

BtVS has been off the air for more than a year. Pull your shit together, spank your inner fenboi or fengurl, and grow the hell up. Let it the hell go already.

In my humble opinion (and note, it is just my opinion), the best thing that could ever happen to BtVS/AtS fandom is if all the shipper groups locked their tinfoil hat contingents in a single room and let the extremists battle it out amongst themselves. That way, the rest of us could have an adult conversation about characters and relationships and agree to disagree.

All I want to know is this: Why is BtVS/AtS fandom so fucking mean? It’s to the level of what-the-fuck mean.

Is this normal? Or is it just this particular fandom?

I’ve been peripherally involved in online fandom for a long time and I have never seen anything like this.

Forever Knight fandom used to have light-hearted RP “shipper wars” in the form of round-robin fanfics. They were fun! They were funny! And no one got his or her feelings hurt just because you had a favorite character or a favorite relationship! In fact, back in the day I was in the Ravenette camp, which meant that Jeannette was my favorite character, but I enjoyed the Nick-Nat relationship as it played out on the show. What a concept!

Farscape, Deep Space Nine, Babylon 5…hell…there’s a list of shows I can rattle off that have a big Internet following and have shippers in them. None of them even approach the level of bile between groups that I’ve seen in BtVS/AtS fandom.

I mean, hell, not even AtS fandom is this insane about ships. Okay, one exception: the Cordelia-Angel fans and the Buffy-Angel fans are engaged in what seems to be a sustained screaming match, the roots of which are lost in fandom history. I mean, I liked Cordelia-Angel a hell of lot more than Buffy-Angel, but not enough to engage in a bizarre shipper war that ultimately meant zero.

The whole business leaves me scratching my head.

I consider myself a Kumbayah sort of gal. You know: live and let live, everyone has his or her own opinion, why can’t we all just get along already.

Now, maybe it’s because I’m one of the true minorities in BtVS fandom: a Xander fan.

Or maybe because I know that Xander doesn’t even appear on Joss Whedon’s now-famous “ten characters” list for the (probably never-to-be-filmed) BtVS telemovies.

Or maybe it’s because the chances of my own particular ship (Xander-Faith) happening in canon falls somewhere between hysterical, derisive laughter and “a snowball’s chance in hell.”

Or maybe it’s because I walked into Internet fandom rather late in the BtVS/AtS game at the beginning of sixth season BtVS.

The thing is, I don’t get it. I just don’t.

I suspect that it’s because I’m completely and totally the outsider when it comes to the politics of BtVS fandom and because I’ve never seen fandom for a show so fractured into so many armed camps that actively dislike so many of the others.

Speaking to the Fandom_Wank thread, the simple fact of the matter is this: there are nasty-ass people among both the Buffy-Angel and Buffy-Spike shippers. I’m not talking about people who verbally debate the issues. I’m talking about the “will you please make your tinfoil hat already and leave the rest of us in peace” people.

I’ve been chased off supposedly “neutral” boards by Buffy-Angel fans for daring to say that I liked the Cordelia-Angel relationship leagues more than the Buffy-Angel relationship and that I don’t understand the B/A4eva mindset.

I’ve also been chased off supposedly “neutral” boards by Buffy-Spike fans for daring to say that I had serious problems with this particular ship and that I just didn’t like Spike as a character. (For the record: I intensely disliked the Buffy-Spike ship because of what it did to both Buffy and Spike as characters. By the time the end of S7 BtVS rolled around, I wanted them both to die horrible deaths. And prior to ‘Crush’ in mid-S5, Spike was second on my list right after Xander on my fave character parade.)

Although I have to admit, my negative experiences with people in the Buffy-Spike group slightly edges out the negative experiences with people in the Buffy-Angel group only because I had a Buffy-Spike fan almost physically attack me in real life the day after Seeing Red aired.

[The story: When I was working at Borders, there was this woman who’d come in and buy the BtVS magazine. I had talked to this woman before and we had pleasant chats about the show. The relationship cooled before the incident in question when she found out that Xander was my favorite character, but it was still cordial. The day after Seeing Red airs, she came in to buy the BtVS magazine. I was chatting with her to make small talk. She called it “a desperate act of a desperate man” and I was shocked enough to blurt out “an attempted rape is a ‘desperate act?’” She actually pulled her hand back as if she was going to slap me, but a co-worker intervened (ironically enough, another Xander fan) by stepping forward and stood next to me. The woman huffed as she bought her magazine and left. After that, she’d glare at me non-stop whenever she came into the store when I was working.]

Now, here’s the thing: I know that the Borders customer is no more a representative of the sane contingent of Buffy-Spike fans any more than the post quoted in Fandom_Wank is a representative of the sane contingent of Buffy-Angel fans.

But really, it seems like the tinfoil hat brigade in these two groups are everywhere and they’re giving the rest of the people they hang with a bad name.

Now, don’t get me wrong. There are tinfoil hat fans for all the characters and relationships. They’re all just as bad. You haven’t lived until you’ve had insane-o Giles fans taking you to task because they feel you’ve smeared their favorite character’s good name (some of that came from feedback for Revelations). Then there are Willow-obsessed fans who hate all the other characters because they didn’t see how perfect and put upon she was by everyone. There are people obsessed with Dawn who give me a stalkerish, creepy vibe.

And, in the interests of being fair, there are plenty of Xander fans that drive me to my knees and have me saying, “I beg you! Please don’t help me! Shut up or I’m going to break your fingers to prevent you from typing more of this crap!”

Really, from my corner of BtVS/AtS fandom, I think the Cordelia fans got kicked in the teeth the worst. Giles fans probably had it the second worst. You want people who have the right to be bitter? Those are the fans who’ve got every single right.

And while I bitch and moan about Xander’s lack of story line in S7 and the character’s treatment in S6, compared to bullets put into Buffy, Willow, and Spike collective brains he got off relatively lightly with an eye-gouging and a dead ex-fiance. Compare this to the AtS regular characters and Spike who at least got a chance to redeem themselves before the end of that series.

Plus, I can’t fault Xander’s fate (still fighting the good fight in Africa). In addition, as people watch the DVDs more of them are revising their opinion of Xander to the positive spectrum whereas before they’d argue the boy could do nothing right. At the end of the day, I think Xander came out of BtVS relatively intact and I can’t complain about that

Now, here’s the point: All of the above is just my opinion. You can take it. You can leave it. You can disagree. You can agree. Whatever the hell you want.

But someone, somewhere is going to take issue and start waving his or her tinfoil hat and will call down the wrath of the Great God Whedon on my head.

The thing is, I had serious problems with Buffy-Angel. I had serious problems with Buffy-Spike. I didn’t like either one of the ships and I didn’t like them for different reasons.

I personally don’t get the whole B/A4evaohtheirluvissodestined!!!11!!!! attitude.

I personally don’t get the whole B/S4evaohtheirluvissogr8!!!11!!!! attitude.

I don’t get why shipper groups would go out and actually buy ads in the industry trade papers and on industry Web sites pushing their ship on the unwashed masses in some bizarre War of the Roses. (My first question: Couldn’t you raise that money for charity instead?)

I don’t get why any any shipper group feels like Mutant Enemy promised them anything beyond one or two hours of television a week.

I don’t get why any shipper group might take it into their heads that getting their ship to “win” is a matter of life-and-death.

I don’t get it, but people have the right to do it and feel the way they do. I might roll my eyes, but hey! It’s your opinion, it’s your time, and it’s your money, so go crazy. What you do or don’t do doesn’t really affect me in my day-to-day life.

And just because I disagree doesn’t mean I’m attacking you personally. I don’t think you’re less of a person just because your favorite character isn’t Xander. I don’t think you’re any less of a person just because your favorite character is Spike. I don’t think you’re dumb because you’re a hardcore shipper. I don’t think you’re an idiot for liking your ship.

It’s when you start acting like people who have the temerity to disagree with you are the shit on the bottom of your shoe that it really grates.

I think I’m riled because here I am, I’m just back from writercon, and I’ve been all warm and fuzzy inside about BtVS/AtS fandom in general.

Furthermore, I’m in the middle of Kumbayah-type project for the ship_manifesto where I get to write something about Xander-Faith that reflects my (say it with me) opinion on why it’s an interesting ship to write if you’re so inclined to give it a try. If you want to deal with ships and characters, ship_manifesto strikes me as a fun, sane way to do it. Everyone has their say, everyone gets to share their opinion, and no one gets hurt.

Now, by and large, the people attending writercon were a sane group (just as the people running the ship_manifesto strike me as a sane group). Yes, you had some people who wore the tinfoil hat. And yes, I had some people (not even a handful, I might add, no more than a couple of people) who decided I had serious mental issues because I admitted that I didn’t like Spike or because I was a Xander fan.

But there were a whole lot more people (the majority, the vast majority) who were willing to discuss character and plot in a rational, reasonable manner. These people didn’t have a problem with the fact that Spike ranked really low of the list of characters I like, especially since it was abundantly clear I had no interest in bashing Spike as a character and was more interested in discussing his good and bad points.

For the record, I’m using Spike as an example simply because there was a majority of Spike fans attending writercon. I had equally good discussions about Xander, Faith, and Buffy as characters. Oddly enough, not too many people I spoke to discussed Dawn and Willow (even though Willow fans had their own after-hours gathering) as characters with me. *shrug*

But the point is, I’d hang with these people again, regardless of their favorite character or ship. Why? Because they were willing to discuss opposing opinions without acting like I killed kittens for shits and giggles.

Now, repeat after me:

People who like Buffy and Angel (and by extension, Willow-Oz and Cordelia-Xander) as a ship do not endlessly pine for their high school boyfriends or girlfriends.

People who like Buffy and Spike as a ship do not write mash letters to serial killers and rapists.

People who like Cordelia and Angel are not delusional assholes standing in the way of twu wuv 4eva.

People who ship Xander with anyone are not humorless moral absolutists who want to impose what they think is good, pure, and holy on “right-thinking” people.

People who think Willow should end up with a male character are not homophobes who go on gay-bashing sprees every Saturday night.

People who think Willow should be a gal-only kind of gal are not militant lesbians who want to chop the penises off all men.

People who think Willow is bi do not have questionable sexual morals (whatever the hell that means).

People who hook Dawn up with anyone are not pedophiles.

People who hook the Scoobs or the Fang Gang up with each other in any combination do not list incest as a pet kink.

People who write slash fanfiction are not pervs.

People who write het fanfiction are not narrow-minded.

When I don’t like your favorite character; support your favorite ship; think the sun shines out the ass of your favorite actor; worship any participant in the BtVS/AtS-verse as god, it is not a threat to your health and well-being, so stop acting like I pulled a gun on you while you were holding a knife.

If someone spouts off an opinion about a television show and fictional characters and fans of either that you don’t like--especially if that opinion hasn’t been posted on a public board--don’t act like it’s the end of the fucking world and start rallying your buddies so you can show the assholes who’s boss.

I like what I like. You like what you like. No one is making you like what I like. No one is making me like what you like. There’s no one forcing anyone to do anything here.

So all of you with your panties in twist or who are still carrying a virulent grudge against people you’ve never met on the basis of what characters and ships they like: go to your rooms and take a zillion deep breaths. Then, when you’ve calmed down enough to think straight, come out and play nice.

Comments

[gloss]

People who write slash fanfiction are not pervs.
Hey, them's fighting words to this slash writer!
...or not.

*Excellent* rant. It's not even a rant, because although the tone is elevated and imprecatory, you're speaking as a reasonable adult about television shows, and that's all too rare in fandom. I can't agree with you more about everything you've said, and I fully support your idea of sending the tinhats to an extremist cage-match. ::

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

AwWwWwWwW!

*pets the perv*

You can be as perv-y as you want. In fact, I demand it as a reader!

Seriously, I think Oz/Xander shippers are the best. They're so laid back and they never get riled about anything.

(Watch: There's going to be a huge-ass wank coming from this corner of fandom in the next week...)

[annakovsky.livejournal.com]

Is this normal? Or is it just this particular fandom?

Jossverse fandom is definitely wanktastic, but other fandoms can be way worse. I think Harry Potter has the honor of being the wankiest, but LotR real person is also nutso. I mean, there's a whole group of Lotrips fans that are known as the tinhats, they're so insane. I'd say that Jossverse is about average on the wank-o-meter. The good thing about it is that you can usually pretty much avoid these things - that's why I never go to fandom_wank, it makes me despair for the fate of the world. And it also makes my eyes hurt from all the rolling. Hee. :-)

What she said.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Jossverse by no means has a monopoly on wankers, and as time goes on, the wankers will peter out to other fandoms and carry on their wanking there. At least, I hope so. I'd hate to think that in a decade, people will still be screeching about B/A vs. B/S.

Me? Die-hard Xander/Anya 'shipper.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I think that's why I only look at it once-a-week. I want to give it up, but it's like crack, I tells ya.

But you are right: Nothing tops teh wank like HP and RP LotR fandom.

My problem (and I admit it's my problem) is that, like daniidebrabant below, my introduction to online fandom was Forever Knight. I mean, they had shipper groups for fun and everyone was in on the joke, complete with "wars" and "flaming" and "battle cries."

But the thing is, everyone thought it was dead funny and no one took it even close to seriously. It was giggly, stupid fun.

The same held true in Battlestar Galactica (Original Series) online fandom waaaaaay back in the beginning where you had much of the same thing. The recent nastiness in that fandom of die-hards vs. people willing to give the new series a try has taken a lot of us old-timers by very rude surprise.

I guess that's why I'm befuddled and bemused by the whole thing. *shrug*

[daniidebrabant.livejournal.com]

Clap. Clap. Clap. Clapclapclapclapclap.

That is the sound of me and hundreds of boggled peaceful fans applauding you.

I've always sort of wondered why Buffy wasn't as friendly as FK. I started in fandom with FK (I sort of think of it as my home base), and I think that will always influence the way I see it. FK was a relatively peaceful, fun, friendly community. I mean, they made an entire FACTION for fans who had mental illnesses, one who answered requests for prayers and well wishes/good energy from other fans, and the charity efforts of the GWDFC were AMAZING (still are).

I, personally, am not a Spuffy fan because I think that the relationship did nothing good for anyone on the show. I too loved Spike during season 5, and felt that Spuffy degraded him as well as Buffy.

I, personally, am not a B/A shipper because I think that boat has passed; also, I like Angel better on his own show as opposed to playing reason-for-angst on Buffy.

Thus, I watch and stare. But I gotta agree with everything you said. Clapclapclapclapclap.

And oo! I'm first to comment!

[daniidebrabant.livejournal.com]

i fibbed...or actually, took too long to type : )

[(Anonymous)]

Standing ovation.

Ironic that the offending quote mirrors something said by a ME writer as the reason why they had to throw the assault into Seeing Red, to 'remind' the audience that Spike wasn't supposed to be seen as the sympathetic character in that relationship. (Granted, they screwed that up themselves, by having Buffy sexually assault him long before he tried to return the favor, and constantly portraying him as the one who wanted to talk, and her as the abusive one who just used him. So it isn't the fans faults for interpreting Spike as the 'good guy' there, since Buffy sure as hell wasn't...)

A good fic is a good fic, even if it's Buffy / Giles, or Giles / Anya, or yes, even Dawn / Xander. I've seen good Spike / Buffy and good Angel / Buffy, and I've seen FAR TOO MANY truly awful fics (some S/B, some A/B, and yes, some Xander-centric), which seem to exist solely to bash other characters, instead of build up the ones that the fic is supposed to be about. If I'm reading a fic about Spike and Buffy, I don't want to read about how Angel or Riley sucked in bed, 'cause in my little world, Buffy isn't that crass or shallow in who she chooses to spend her life with, and doesn't talk trash about past loves. If she wants to spend her life with Spike, I'd rather read about positive things about *Spike* than negative things about everyone else. 'Cause everyone else sucking? Doesn't make Spike a good choice, unless he's the last man on earth... If I'm reading a fic about Willow / Tara, I don't need to be serenaded with how much all of the men in their lives suck. I've got a lesbian friend, and she assures me that it's possible to be gay without *despising* the opposite sex.

I really don't get the logic of bashing another character to make one's own preference seem shinier. Right, so Xander's a self-righteous pig, Riley's a neo-nazi speciest, Angel's a pooftah with lame hair that sticks straight up and abandons her like every other man in her life and Giles is a deceitful bossy creep who lies to and betrays her. Fine. So how does ten paragraphs insulting all of the people that Spike and Buffy choose to call friends / hang out with make them look better?

They say, 'If you don't have the law, argue the facts.
If you don't have the facts, argue the law.
If you don't have either, pound the table.'
(i.e. If you don't have an argument, appeal to emotion.)

Too many people seem to be pounding the table, as if volume and repitition makes them right. There is no 'right.' The show's over, and the characters have all behaved so inconsistently over the years that fans can find specific words and actions to support ANY point of view or interpretation.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I agree.

Both Buffy and Spike were asshats in the course of their relationship. I swear to god the ME writers had no clue about the mixed messages they were sending.

Buffy is bad! Spike is bad! Buffy is good! Spike is good! They were using each other! They had twu wuv! It was a good relationship! It was a bad relationship!

Make up your fucking mind ME!

I expressed a lot of discontent over the whole business and I had serious issues with the relationship. It degraded both characters in pretty unrecoverable ways. (Although I was feeling grudging like for Spike on AtS...I like my Spike with real balls, for fuck's sake.)

If they had some clear point of view and made up their goddamn minds, I still might not of liked Buffy-Spike, but my level of dislike would've been on the same level as Buffy-Angel where I could see where they were going with it, even if I didn't think the pairing necessarily worked.

Where my problems come in on fans in general is exactly that: the random character bashing. I mean, what? You can't like ship without hating all the other characters?

And yes, character bashing in discussions and in fanfic is waaaaay too prevalent. My attitude is: if you don't like the character and you don't feel inclined to give the character his or her due, than don't write that character. If you must write them, then at least try to stay neutral.

I guess I'm supersensitive about character bashing simply because (as a Xander-fan), there was a period where I couldn't find a Buffy-Spike fic that didn't humiliate the character or bash him in some awful way. As much as I'm not crazy about Spike, I don't like it when he's bashed in fics either.

*shrug* The interesting thing in all this is that in the follow-up story I've got planned for Living History, Spike is a major character who does a lot of good things in the fic (that's the plan I've got sketched out) for a lot of people, even to the point where he's instrumental in saving another character he doesn't particularly like.

Now, is he going to be snarky and nasty to Xander? You bet. Is Xander going to act like an utter ass because Spike brings out the worst in him? You can bet on that, too.

Am I planning to bash anyone; stake Spike on general principle; or turn anyone into fool? Not a chance.

[jetpack-monkey.livejournal.com]

I don't know you at all, but right now I just want to sweep you up into a gigantic hug.

This is everything I've ever thought about the bewildering world of shipping, laid out perfectly.

As for myself, I'll read any ship that's given proper context, motivation, and purpose. Or, you know, if it's smutty enough that the other three requirements relax a bit (but not entirely - I do have standards).

To recap - yes yes yes yes yes. Brilliant. I bow to you. *bows*

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*

Thank you.

Frankly, I'm glad to get the love early, because I suspect there's going to be a little hate-fest heading my way over this.

But, yeah, the inflexible world some people inhabit really make me wonder....

[redbeardjim.livejournal.com]

*joins the round of applause*

Yeah, I just don't get the shipper wars. I mean, there are ships I just don't get, but that's my deal, and guess what? It's really easy to avoid them. You're right about the people who get some sort of enjoyment from being offended. *shrugs*

Anyway. Just wanted to heap more praise on your already heavily-loaded shoulders.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

And yet more icon lust!

The thing is, if you don't like Buffy-Spike shipper stories, don't read them. If you don't like Buffy-Angel stories, don't read them. If you don't like Xander-centric stories, don't read them.

It's really freakin' simple to me.

The problem is, you have people going around who randomly flame stories because they don't like the character that gets featured.

I'm even more annoyed when it comes to this particular case. If you don't like the particular ship or character that a private, members-only message board caters to, than don't freaking join. Because I can guarantee that at some point you're going to be offended when someone spouts off about stupid crap.

I mean, you had people on a private message board that caters to a particular ship ranting about something or other in a not-very-nice way. Fine. The poster was a tinfoil hat, but a tinfoil hat keeping it to his or her corner of fandom and not annoying the rest of us.

But here you have someone who is openly hostile to that particular ship, picking up this message and transmitting it to a public space.

I mean, wtf why?

But the soopah sekrit spy is (IMHO) just as much, if not more of an ass, because it was pretty damn clear that by joining a private sandbox they were going to be offended sooner or later and they have the nerve to be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when it finally happens.

What? Like there aren't enough private sandboxes around for your particular ship?

Like I said, people who engage in this stuff have waaaaaay too much time on their hands.

[leni-ba.livejournal.com]

I swear, were it not for the occasional post complaining about 'ship wars I'd never know about them. I just don't care enough, I guess. The thought of them amuses me, yes, but not enough to go see the damage. *shrugs*

Do I understand it? Kinda. 'To each his own' is perfect for this. I like my fandom peaceful, I guess they don't. Who am I to interrupt their fun? If they want to go at it for another eight years, well, I can only hope it's worth the effort. I'll just stay over here, write some and enjoy my corner of the fandom. *hugs flist*

My own motto in the crazyness that is fandom? Hate the pairing, loathe the character, but be cordial with the ones who write them. So far it's worked beautifully.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

Never killed anyone to be nice. Never killed anyone to try reading a pairing or a character piece that doesn't normally float your boat. I've been occassionally pleasantly surprised.

*shudders* Eight more years of shippers beating each other over the head? Don't even joke... :-)

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

*claps*

And it's funny for me, because I was involved in elections before I ever got in fandom. (S6) And compared to what goes on in Israeli politics, or even in Florida in 2000 - this is so petty and juvenile.

while I bitch and moan about Xander’s lack of story line in S7 and the character’s treatment in S6, compared to bullets put into Buffy, Willow, and Spike collective brains he got off relatively lightly with an eye-gouging and a dead ex-fiance.

I think S6-7 served Spike's character extremely well. Added a lot of depth to his character. Granted much of that depth wasn't pretty depth, but I felt that much of the controversial behavior people got up in arms against was set up or foreshadowed in the story whether it was planned as such or not. And whether they were good traits or ill.

A lot of how Buffy and Willow behaved in S6-7 felt no where near as well set up or explained. And at least Spike's behavior in S7 makes sense to me (when so little about S7 makes sense at all.)

And any character that goes unexplored in a terribly written season is going to wind up being better served in retrospect...

Ah the crazy fandom.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I'm telling you man: The November elections...now that's important. This? Not so much.

I somewhat agree with S6 and S7 Spike being better served by the storyline, which is the nut of my problem with the character. His development took precendence over the other characters, including the character whose name was the same as the show.

During S7, I would've given an eyetooth to figure out what was going on in Xander's, Willow's and Buffy's heads. Hell, I would've given an eyetooth just to make better sense of S6 and S7. If I squint, I think I get what they were trying to say, but I think it was poorly executed.

Plus, if you're going to challenge the importance of a soul, just come balls-out and do it without muddying the waters. Instead, there was a wishy-washy storyline for Spike where you can legitimately have people on both sides of the aisle arguing that Spike is evil or Spike is good and for both of them to have points in their favor.

I still say Spike and the other characters would've been better served if they never had a Buffy-Spike ship (pull love out of the equation) and never even introduced the soul. Just have Spike making a cost-benefit decision to throw in with the white hats. Then it would've forced everyone to confront what having a soul means and how that argument impacts on the Slayer's role. It could've been a really meaty faith-vs-good works debate and it would've worked.

[lisaroquin.livejournal.com]

Bravo! *claps madly* Very well said.

Though I suppose this must be taken with a grain of salt, coming from a heretic such as myself, who has no OTP and likes both Slash and Het.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Ach. But how will I put you into a tiny little box?

[stephanierb.livejournal.com]

Excellent post. I wish I could explain the level of hate in the fandom, but I'm afraid I'm at a loss. Your rant was very articulate and I found myself nodding my head as I read it.

I'm a pretty diehard B/Aer and I'd love to hear your take on the ship some time.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

There are ships I love, ships I loathe and ships I read if they're part of a highly reccommended story.

I have never understood the need to bash ships and/or characters. I'm more than happy to intelligently discuss events on both shows and explain my perspective on it. But to make a blanket statement that anyone who believes this or likes that is some kind of mental defective makes me wonder.

The shipper wars are disturbing to me on several levels. I happen to like one of those ships and my fear is people will lump me in with the vocal fringe element. Makes me want to put my head in the sand, truthfully.

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of it has to do with age. I'm a manga
dealer and as such spend more time than any sane
person should around anime conventions. What I see
almost every weekend is mostly young girls (about
14-16 on average) who get in angry, sometimes
almost violent arguments over the love lives of
fictional characters. You have not seen a nut-job
fan until you have watched a yaoi (slash) fan
vent her hate of any female character who might
come between 'her' boys. Scary.

Maybe that is what haunts BtVS fandom, lots
of kids who have yet to learn everything is not
life or death. Lacking any real sense of themselves
as people they latch onto a shipper label as
a way to define themselves and take anything
that might harm 'their couple' as a personal atack.
Or maybe I'm just looking to find reason in people
acting stupid.

-Andrew

Shipper Wars

[(Anonymous)]

Now you know why I left a group we were once both members of.

I just bet you were captain of your school's debating team weren't you?

Keith

Spike's breakdown in Seeing Red.

[(Anonymous)]

I just want to start by saying this is my opinion, and, no, I am not a rabid Spike fan, I simply try to understand both sides of a situation and help others to do the same. Looking at what happened from Buffy's point of view, or that of any non-rapist's, what Spike did was very wrong. Looking at it from Spike's point of view AT THE TIME what he did was not rape. Spike was human for, what, maybe 30 years? He was a vampire for probably five times that and he spent almost all of that time with Drusilla, who was a very sexually violent creature. He was in love? with Buffy for about one year before beginning a sexually violent relationship with her. When Dru left him, he said it himself "I'm going to find her, wherever she is, tie her up, and torture her, untill she loves me again." He said it when he attacked Buffy "I'll make you love me." He was doing this the only way he knew how.
That said, what he did was awful, horrible, and almost made me change the channel, something I've never done while watching a new episode. It still creeps me out to watch it to this day.
Love Living History. I check your site three times a day for new installments. Thanks for listening to me babble.

Fan of both shows and believer that all ships are incorrect untill written by Joss,

Nate Reish.

[mara-sho.livejournal.com]

*claps wildly* (adds to memories)

X Files was my first foray into online fandom and that was in a tiny way, there were shippers and non-shippers but it was light hearted, and as far as I could tell there was no hard feelings between any of those groups.

In BtVS/AtS fandom, I too have been chased from forums for daring to point out that the scene in Seeing Red was attempted rape. I had a woman, a mother, a normally sane person, actually say things like "she was asking for it, treating him like that" and "but they had rough sex in the past, how was he to know?" I have real problems with the B/S 'ship. However the difference between me and that woman is that I really don't like her chosen 'ship but I don't get on my soap box and shout to the world that I'm right and everyone else is wrong and an idiot for not agreeing with me.

It's far more interesting to me to explore why people 'ship a certain way, to have reasoned discussions with them. There are little niches on the 'net where people can do that, but the far more vocal forums are those which attract the attention and make people (like you and me apparently) tear their hair out in frustration at how people are treating each other.

by the way Liz, are you interested in maybe writing an essay for INAP? We need some quality writing on the essays section and you were the first person I thought of.

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Think I'll kill off Spike as well as Angel and have Buffy go off with Holtz to bring up Connor. That one ought to annoy everyone...

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Oh, with loads of graphic Boltz (or Huffy), of course, not sure what the code word is for that ship...

[ludditerobot.livejournal.com]

Word.

I say I ship X/F, and so much that I read ships X/F (Thanks, Liz! Thanks, nwhepcat!) but the closest things to shipping I've written are Xander telling Buffy why X/B wouldn't work, background canon W/K and X/OC Vamp in some Minnesota back alley. I don't ship, really. I like the world, and I like the characters. B/A could've worked. B/S could've worked. B/R could've worked. B/X could've worked. (B/G? Not so much, I think.) One True Love comes from Shakespeare, not reality, and asserting violently that two fictional creations are only supposed to be with each other strikes me as a bit loony.

nostalgia_lj had a "defend your ships" meme, which I participated in, with the rule that you could't bash anyone else's ships. I participated. I thought it was a good thing. I got a reply (deleted) saying that the poster thought they were too brother-sister for that, but the evidence from "Restless" shows that Xander thought that Buffy thought of him like a brother. It doesn't come from her mind. (Xander hardly shows up in Buffy's dream, which is possibly a more accurate portrayal of Buffy's thoughts.) Me, I subscribe to the When Harry Met Sally view. Going further would perhaps lead me toward the ranting loon category.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

One True Love comes from Shakespeare, not reality, and asserting violently that two fictional creations are only supposed to be with each other strikes me as a bit loony.

I tend to agree. I have certain pairings I favor more than others, but I generally have a context for that. Perhaps I'll change my mind the day scientists develop a 100% fool-proof soulmate-identification machine, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

IMHO, people generally have a set of preferences and look to find others who have qualities that appeal to them. The world is a very big place, and I don't think it's beyond the pale to suggest that there's more than one person out there who might posses qualities that might appeal to your preferences.

Except for you Luddite, because your wife probably doesn't want to hear that.

As for Xander and Buffy. I think Buffy, when she does pay attention to him, recognizes that he has many wonderful qualities. And I think she can find a certain comfortable vibe with him. But for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to have qualities that she's looking for. And me anyway, I'm of a mind to try to find someone who appreciates my qualities, rather than trying to remake myself to fit someone else.

I suppose I could pass judgement on the merits of her preferences, but I don't really want people passing judgements on the merits of mine, so I'm going to try not to. They are what they are.

[booster17.livejournal.com]

*also applauds*

Maybe I've just been spoiled somewhat by reading good authors who don't hit you over the head with how bad this character is, or how evil they were to do this to the poor misunderstood being that happens to be the center of this fic.

Oddly enough, I'm reminded of an interview with Christopher Priest (the comics writer, not the sci-fi author) about when he would take over the writing on a book. Each book would have several supporting characters, some of which the new author wouldn't want to deal with. The trick was to respect the characters - if you didn't feel like using them, don't kill them off or do something stupid to them. Priest's favourite trick was to put them on a bus out of town, so that future writers who did like them could use them whenever they wanted.

It's all about respect for the characters. If you don't like them, just don't write about them! Stick 'em on the bus. :) No need to bash someone.

Sing it, sister.

[butterflykiki.livejournal.com]

Wow, you've started off a thread here. Heh. The meanness of other people is always a good topic...

I don’t get why any any shipper group feels like Mutant Enemy promised them anything beyond one or two hours of television a week.


I blame three things: accessibility of the writer, accessibility of the internet and accessibility of the show.

The show's accessibility means that yes, you get the teenybopper contingent who *has not* grown up yet, and they can get a little... insane, about whatever their ship is. In FK fandom, the show itself was hard to find, and the list was hard to find, and you had to be fairly devoted to stick with it. This cuts down (although it doesn't eliminate) the tinhat factor. Plus, BtVS works in multiple levels, and was nominally pitched to teens; the maturity level of the audience was just that much lower. The people who didn't look for layers didn't need to find them, and thus, you get the B/A and B/S intensity because they accept the material as written. (Not insulting either camp! Just kinda sayin' what happened here...)

Plus, FK fandom started out on a private list where the "be nice and sane" rules were pretty strictly enforced. The internet, with all its craziness, was up and running and rule-free by the time BtVS hit the air. Much easier for the fringe element to take hold and be regarded as a norm. Easier to have an opinion that doesn't get contradicted and only gets reinforced if you're on some of these lists-- or to find people to *fight* with, because no one is refereeing, if that's what you're into. Some of these people never learned netiquette and don't want to.

And last, I love Joss, but I think he encouraged the tinhats by being a geek himself, and responding so often to fan comments at the beginning of the run. By making it clear he *was* aware of fan response, even if he didn't always listen to it, many of the crazier elements felt they could "convince" him of how the show should go by being LOUD and persistent and intense. *sigh* Thus leaving the rest of us to hear them during the hours when Joss had better things to do like, you know, actually write the show.

As a Cordy fan and an Anya fan and a Giles fan, I'm bitter, way bitter... but I got broken of all expectations for my characters when Joss killed off Jenny. And I was cynically unable to *really* commit to a TV relationship after FK, since that turned out so well. B/A fans got to hang onto their illusions for about three and a half years; Buffy/Spike fans, at least as long, if you work from "Something Blue". I think cognitive dissonance set in after that. They want the payoff. They're never gonna *get* the payoff. THerefore, they must defend their territory like rabid wildebeests, because the need for closure has nowhere to go.

That's my theory, anyway. I think I'm going to re-post this in my own LJ now....

[ocipital.livejournal.com]

The only day Ive ever really felt the love for fandom as a whole (well save the bitter boards) was Saturday 14th of Febuary 2004, the day I woke up to find Angel had been canceled. Sure they were angry, but they were all anfry together, not at each other. It didnt even matter that I totally understood why levin pulled the plug, and that some of the comments were overly personal against him. They were united in their hate, rather than divided by t.

I dont think its a lack of maturity, very few B/A shippers are teens anymore (its been 5 years since Angel left Buffy), and whilst some Spuffy shippers are they cover a wide age range. I dont think its necc shippers either per say, cold dead seed (which was named in Jerusalems post) isnt a spuffy board, its actually quite opposed to Spuffy and Buffy in general (if it shipped anything its Spangle). Whilst Spangle might conflict with the B/A4everrrrrr as much as Spuffy, as a non-canonical ship it hardly posed the same level of threat.

Personally I think its more of a them and us mob mentality. This isnt a lack of maturity, it exists in everyone of us, and it cant be stopped, if Buffy is still being discussed in any great detail in 100 years I guarantee there will still be the 'shipper' wars.

[spuzz.livejournal.com]

Now, maybe it’s because I’m one of the true minorities in BtVS fandom: a Xander fan.

Slap my hand fellow Xander fan. Word.

Excellent post, with very little to add from my end.

X-Files was my first exposure to fanfiction...

[(Anonymous)]

...and honestly, I thought it was the most bizarre thing *eva*. I never got involved in X-Files fandom, but I probably qualified most as a non-shipper. (I remember a letter to TVGuide in the summer between that show's second and third season, when the show's buzz was really starting to pick up steam, in which the letter-writer openly pleaded for "somebody in a position" of authority" to make Chris Carter see that Mulder and Scully "belonged" together in a romantic relationship. My reaction at the time was "Geez, rude much? Let the poor guy define what the premise of the show is."

So when I first discovered X-Files fanfic, I thought, "Cool, folks are trying to write their own stories about cases involving the paranormal, aliens, UFO's, monsters, etc." Imagine my consternation when I discovered that people were instead writing almost nothing but their ideas on how Mulder and Scully should become a couple. Or Skinner and Scully, or Krychek and Scully...and well, it was also my first introduction to the very concept of slash. I've been traumatized ever since. :)

--skippcomet

And, uh, oops....

[(Anonymous)]

...this was supposed to be in reply to one of the subthreads up above, not the original post. (Even though that's good reading.) My bad, folks, sorry!

--skippcomet