Behold a wanky rant

[liz_marcs]

Dear Anti-Xander and Pro-Xander fans:

For the last freakin' time, you cannot put people who like Xander as a character in a box, mark it as "typical Xander fan," and then assume that everyone who likes that character is the same.

I can honestly say that you will be shocked down to your toes if you assume that all Xander fans are all of the following:

• Politically conservative
  
• Christian evangelical and/or fundamentalist
  
• Male
  
• White
  
• Will automatically agree with you on any and all issues (pro-Xander fans)
  
• Are your sworn enemy in some way (anti-Xander fans)
  

It might surprise you to know that most of the Xander fans I know are the following:

• Politically liberal
  
• Pretty much crosses the spectrum religion-wise
  
• Women
  
• Never asked for racial identity and know what? Don't care either.
  
• Disagree with each other on any number of issues to the point of out-and-out dislike between subfactions (pro-Xander fans)
  
• Have a whole lot more in common with you than you realize if only you'd talk to us instead beating us over the head with your weird assumptions (anti-Xander fans)
  

So, for the last time, stop calling anti-Xander fans liberal scum, because one of those liberal scum may be sitting right next to you fandom-wise and may be inspired to repeatedly kick you in the head until you get a freakin' clue.

And stop calling pro-Xander fans "conservative misogynists," because one of those pro-Xander fans may be sitting right next to you politically speaking and may be inspired to repeatedly kick you in the head until you get a freakin' clue.

Furthmore, BtVS has been off the air how long? You'd think you folks would've figured out by now the following:

• People are allowed to hate your favorite character
  
• People are allowed to love the character you hate the most
  
• Being a fan or an anti-fan of a character says nothing about the real person holding those opinions
  
• Everyone's take on canon and characters varies wildly from person to person; while you say "asparagus" about an issue, someone else is saying "ice cream" about the exact same issue
  
• Being rude to someone just because you dislike their their favorite charactes says a whole lot more about you than it does the person you're being rude to or bad-mouthing
  

Now that we have that cleared up, I think you should know that I'm saying all of the above with absolutely no love at all.

Signed,

Moi

This rant brought to you by random, stray rude comments I've seen floating around in various places over the past two weeks in the last hold-outs in Buffy fandom. I blame those crappy comic books for turning formerly reasonable-seeming people back into raging jerks and irrational shippers.

Comments

[luxshine.livejournal.com]

Oh! Wow! *clings* Someone else who doesn't think the comics are the bestest thing since sliced bread!

Ahem. And seriously? The Xander-fan wars are still raging on? Please don't tell me people are still arguing about Xander lying to Buffy back on season 2. (And since when being a Xander-fan is being mysoginistic? No, really, I hadn't heard that one yet)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I've always said that Xander was the most divisive character in Buffy fandom (take a look at his TwOP thread sometime...people get personal over Xander). I think he's even moreso than Spike, and with his prominent role in the comic books...*shrug*

And yes, there are some fans that are still holding "the lie" against Xander. For serious.

There are a few people scattered around LJ and on the smaller discussion boards that have serious issues with the comics for various reasons. To be fair, I haven't read the newest ones, but the earlier ones I saw drove me nuts with some of the lack of logic inherent in the storyline.

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

No, I'm sorry, I don't think people will learn that. Ever.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad. :-(

[tessarin.livejournal.com]

"For the last freakin' time, you cannot put people who like Xander as a character in a box, mark it as "typical Xander fan," and then assume that everyone who likes that character is the same."

Amen.

I wonder how anyone can think this given the strength of the character is the breadth of his appeal, pretty broad church imho. True of pretty much all the characters even the ones I hate.

There's ranting over Xander in the comics? Now I have ranted on the comics but only tangentially on Xander:-) So I know hints of irrationality have crept in there. But haven't yet been aware of rude comments? Most of the discussion and disagreement I have seen so far is pretty polite.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

You have to get off Whedonesque to really get the low-level wanking. I've seen people around LJ take an axe to the comics over one thing or another — some of them because they don't like Xander's prominent role in the comics. Poke your nose in some of the discussion groups, small fanboards, and you'll definitely see that the range of opinion is pretty broad.

I, for one, fall in the "meh" category from the issues I've seen. The only thing I like is that Xander is being taken more seriously as a character, and that Buffy is more likeable than she was in S6 and S7. The rest...I have issues with.

The problem is that negative views of the comics don't get linked to from Whedonesque or even TwOP. So you almost have to look for it or stumble across it.

There's been low-level wanking all along, to be honest. It's just that I can see a slow build. I don't think it'll be as big as when the show aired, but I suspect it could get uncomfy.



And to be fair, it is low-level at this point, but if, say, Buffy

[crazy-vasey.livejournal.com]

How on Earth did Xander get linked with conservative religious types? That just . . . I don't get it. He 'lived in sin' for years, ran out on his wedding, and at no point that I can remember displayed any sort of religous beliefs. Not exactly a church poster boy. I just no not understand.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

You would think Riley fans (and there are a few — I liked Riley myself) would get that dubious cliché attached to them.

I think it's partially how some fan groups "coded" Xander's character (and Xander was a fairly black-and-white individual in the earlier seasons — although I saw his black-and-white as "people who hurt my friends are scum" as opposed to anything more moral than that).

Part of it is also because any given group of tinhats in one fan group will hold the tinhats in an "enemy" fangroup up as "normal" for fans in that group.

So, yeah, I can actually see it, even if it doesn't make a lick of sense.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

Since when is Xander a religious conservative. He was palnning to marry and ex-demon and he plays second banana to a bunch of strong women.

My head, it hurts.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Don't tell me you missed that episode where he tries to convert Willow?

Or what about when he insists Anya be baptized so she can stop being an heathen?

Not ringing any bells?

You MUST remember how he disliked Angel for being yanno, Catholic?

:D

[smhwpf.livejournal.com]

Ah, Liz, I'm afraid you'll never convince some folks that disagreeing with their taste in characters in their chosen fandom is not attacking the very core of their being. So obviously a Xander-fan/anti-fan must also be of the wrong political, religious and every other colour.

Still lovin' the comics actually. But I am sure they'll be reviving dormant craziness in a fair few.

I mean, like those Buffy-Satsu shippers. How can they? It's crazy! It's... it's just totally misunderstanding Buffy's character!!! I mean, isn't it obvious Buffy belongs with Faith???

But I'm glad to say I've been totally unaffected. ;)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

No-no-no! Faith/Xander 4eva you perv!

Or maybe Faith/Xander/Willow 4eva...because 3somes are wholesome fun for everyone!

Or is that Xander/Faith/Spike 4eva? I get so confused...

As for reviving the dormant craziness, I think that pretty much started before Issue 1 came out and news filtered out that Angel and Spike would make "appearances" but wouldn't be main characters.

It's down to a low rumble now, but if shipping occurs in the comics I think people will need to put on their seatbelts because it's gonna be a bumpy ride (Again!).

[xanphibian.livejournal.com]

&hearts

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

*right back atchya*

[tabrumj.livejournal.com]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?

Do I even want to know why in the hellmouth people are associating political stances with if you do or do not like Xander? Is there some sort of strange justification that only exists off in crazy land?

Because to be honest, I never saw Xander having anything resembling a solid political stance in all 7 seasons of the show. He always seemed to be more concerned with his friends and surviving.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Political- and religious-type wank tended to attach to Xander more than the other characters (Spike came in a distant second).

I think a lot of it is because of the make-up of the XanderZone, which at one time was the largest Xander-centric list (larger than even Nummytreats, which was the Slash Xander-centric).

Now, to be honest, it's an unfair characterization of the XanderZone because you can't put a list that had (last I saw) 1,800+ members in one box. It's just that the better-known writers associated with the list fit the profile, so to speak.

And just like fandom for other characters, the extremes were viewed as "typical," when that wasn't even the case at all.

[simonf.livejournal.com]

There's new Xander wank? I need to get out more. I'm loving the comics but I think when it comes to fandom, a butterfly flapping its wings would turn people into fan extremists. Some people just need any excuse.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It's more like low-level wank across all the characters.

My problem with the comics books is that (personally) I don't think the storyline is at all well-constructed, and I think there are some things that are done just because they can be done, not because they make sense.

And this is from someone who loves comics. Then again, I thought JW did a crappy job with the X-Men, too. So maybe I just don't like his comic book style. *shrug*

That said, people love the comics, people hate the comics, people are *meh* about them and it's all cool.

I just dislike that rumblings of dead character-centric wanks are starting to sound again.

So much for Buffy's kumbahyah period...

[agilebrit.livejournal.com]

There are "typical fans" of the characters? Well slap me silly and call me Marguerite, I did not realize that.

Of course, I'm probably an atypical fan of the whole freakin' show, but that's bound to be beside the point. However, I was unaware that as a politically conservative Christian, I was required to be a Xander fan. I guess I'd better fix that, stat. Sorry, Spike, apparently I'm not allowed to love you anymore... *adjusts tinhat*

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

It's time you turn in your Spike-lover badge because don't you know Spike fans are Secular Commies?

For shame! To the Xander-Pits with you!

As for myself, I must cease immediately in my love of the Big Lug and convert to the Church of Spike.

Clearly, we have both only just now received the memo.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

You still hope people will be rational about fandom?

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It's a vain hope, I know.

But hope does spring eternal yanno...

[hobgoblinn.livejournal.com]

Um-- you're kidding, right?

I seriously need to get out more. Or, you know, maybe not. Maybe I should get back to writing. Or researching boy scout merit badges suitable for wee hob's first Merit Badge Challenge (3 saturday mornings in winter gets you 3 badges. If you do all the requirements for them.)

sadly, Ranting is not currently offered.... Shame, as he'd be a natural....

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I think there should be merit badges for ranting. *nods* Coherent ranting is a life skill, I tell you.

Actually, this is kind of a holdover from various memes that cropped up during S6 and pretty much haunted Xander fans for a couple of years after that.

The thing is all of the various fan groups had similar insulting memes and sweeping generalizations aimed at them. And to be honest, I was guilty of occasionally losing my temper, cataloging people along similar lines, and typing before my brain kicked in. I didn't do it often, but when you're in the middle of a wank-fast...well...

I'm just annoyed that I'm starting to see those memes resurface again. Nowhere near as bad as it was, but little hints of what's to come if the comic book goes in direction "Y" instead of direction "Z."

[nocturnalista.livejournal.com]

Having recently spent mega-time over on the MSN religion boards, and now having read this, I've come to a conclusion: People seriously need to get lives. Humans are scary, scary creatures.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I think it's more humans are tribal, only now we can annoy people on the other side of the world instead of just the people in our own backyard.

*grins*

[semby.livejournal.com]

So, so sad that this rant is necessary...

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

And that it can be applied to more than one fandom....

[bluegreensmoke.livejournal.com]

Oh, great. I'm so glad that fandom's reliving 2002 all over again. It was just so much fun the first time!

*headdesk* x infinity.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

You make me glad that I've been spending way too much time (by objective measure) over on Wikipedia Articles for Deletion, where there is a broad and colorfulassortment of crazy, none ofwhich impinges on my ideas of fun.

Well, except for some Farscape stuff, but that's been settled.

Julia, I find people arguing about stuff for which I do not give a fig endlessly amousing; this may not be a positive characteristic

[fadethecat.livejournal.com]

Once in a while, I think that I am too disconnected from fandom, being merely a fan of certain shows and manga and books and what not, and that I should explore the internet a bit more and learn to interact more proactively with other fans of similar tastes.

And then I read something like this and realize that I'm very very happy just quietly appreciating the stuff I like from the privacy and safety of my own head.

(...though if there's a good place to go looking for people who think Tara was just the bee's knees, I'm still sort of curious...)

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Fandom does seem to throw up some VERY weird ideas. The one that tends to make me laugh is the way that Angel gets treated in a lot of Spike-centric fanfic, e.g. exaggerate every fault and ignore all the virtues, and write Spike as Buffy's one true lurv from the moment he first appeared in the show, while Angel was a paedophile stalker.

A lot of the Xander-centric ideas are even more biased, which I would have thought was next to impossible.

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

I would like to stand up for one across-the-board Xander-fan attribute.

We all like Twinkies!!!

*\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/* *\o/*

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Mmmmmmm. Twinkies.

But not the deep fried Twinkies. They're just gross. *nods*

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

There's no way fans would be rational about fandom, and especially about Xander's lie in S2. Some fans are still passionately holding grudge against Xander for that lie. I think the biggest reason for that was because it wasn't dealt with in S3... in which Xander gets awfully punished by Buffy and Angel, I assume.

As for the comics, I'm enjoying them. Not everything, just the Buffy, Xander, new characters stuff. I'm also enjoying the Faith arc. You should try it, it's more easy to follow than the first arc.

I think what I hate about the comics is the whole Giant!Dawn and Warren coming back and Powerful Willow stuff. Other than that, I'm loving Buffy, Xander, new slayers, Giles, and Faith more.

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

I love all the BtVS characters, and one of the great things about them is that they screw up and do dumb and selfish and even occasionally mean things just like real people (like you & me & everyone else that we love & consider a good person). There are times I really wanted to punch Xander across the room but he was just behaving like people do in real life ... good, honest, loving people. Nobody is perfect and omniscient. There were just as many times I wanted to give him a big hug.

IMO Buffy is the character that comes in for the most unwarranted and biased hatred, and she's my favorite, so I feel the most protective of her, but I tend to avoid the wanky areas of fandom as much as I possibly can. There certainly is enough unbalanced character-hatred around that I still come across it sometimes (and even a little is too much).

It's far more interesting to me to acknowledge the character's complexities & gray areas and recognize that's why they resonate with us so much. I don't find cardboard stereotypes and cliches all that interesting, and it's why the Buffyverse characters are so endlessly compelling.

[madripoor-rose.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how personally we can take fandom. You get overly invested in loving or hating a character and the balloon goes up once you see someone with the opposite opinion. You know the old saying, hell is other people. That applies to fandom as well as anything.

[theantijoss.livejournal.com]

I had no idea Xander was so contentious!

I was enjoying the comics for a while, but they lost me again with the bad Faith characterization.

Pft. I don't have time for the craziness anymore. Even in the new fandom where I'm dangling my toes, I'm staying FAR, FAR away from the general fandom at large, because -- well, been there, done that, and it ruins your enjoyment of the show.

I never knew there was Xander wank! Really! I mean... he's Xander. He's... The Guy, you know? Our guy! Our human guy! The heart!

And just to represent myself in the long-lingering "lie" argument -- dude, he did exactly the right thing, for whatever reason it was. Buffy might have hesitated for just a second, and then she would have been DEAD. There was no other way a sane person could have acted. Not that I wouldn't have loved to see an argument about it later. *G*

Anyway... you would think that the lingering bits of fandom would, I don't know, pull together, since we are so few these days? But no, not our fandom! We just can't let go of the animosity!

Are you not posting over on IJ anymore? After the latest LJ crap, I'm surprised to see so many people back here.

[postholedigger.livejournal.com]

Blink. Blink. Boy am I glad I only read the stories and avoid all the other stuff. Jeez.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Wow! I never knew there were "typical" Xander and anti-Xander fans! Color me surprised! When I first started reading this, I thought that Entitlement!Man was kicking over some more traces, but this is even freakier. I knew about the anti-Spike fans, (and had personal experiences with some - especially after SR aired) but didn't realize that Xander had haters to the same degree. Personally, I love almost all of the characters with a passion, with the exception of Kennedy, Rona and AtS Eve - whom I just find annoying, rather than interesting, but there are neat people on my flist who love each of those three to pieces. I don't understand it, but I can certainly accept it, without thinking those flisters are whacked.

I think you're right about the latest shit storm being the fault of the comics - because they have brought BtVS back into prominence for those who haven't been reading/writing fanfic all along. I just find it hard to get that excited about anything that happens in the comics (although, I am sure there are those who take them very seriously). I think the art isn't very good, a lot of the characters frequently look ugly, and I can't always tell who is being portrayed from one panel to the next, plus the story isn't particularly interesting to me, so I've decided to pretty much ignore the comics for now.