liz_marcs: Jeff and Annie in Trobed's bathroom during Remedial Chaos Theory (DS9_Far_Beyond)
liz_marcs ([personal profile] liz_marcs) wrote2007-08-31 06:59 pm

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine...God I love this show...

We shall now return to our regular fannish programming...

Inspired in part by a local friend's decision to watch Star Trek: Deep Space Nine — aka DS9 for those "in the in-crowd" — for the first time ever, and inspired in part by several FLister's who are watching Babylon 5 for the first time ever, I've decided to go on my own private DS9 re-watch.

Let me make one thing clear: I love Babylon 5. I've re-watched the series from beginning to end 4 times: 1 time first run, 1 time on TNT reruns, 1 time on SciFi reruns, and 1 time on DVD.

DS9? I've seen only twice. Once first run, although I missed a significant chunk of the first and second seasons. And once on TNT reruns, although I often missed at least one episode a week.

So needless to say, there are quite a few DS9 episodes I've only seen once *waves vaguely* years and years ago. Yet, oddly enough, there are quite a few episodes that have stayed with me over the years, despite the fact that I have seen them only once or twice.

Weirdly enough, I loved both B5 and DS9 when they were running concurrently. Those of you who were online during that time period can attest just how big of an unpopular opinion that was. In fact, there's a whooooooooole history of wank that runs about as long as War and Peace between not just the two fandoms, but between the production teams at the highest levels of both shows in a grudge-wank that has never been matched before or since.

Ahhhh, Usenet. Back in the days when even series creators would cheerfully engage in flamewars with trolls. (Have I ever mentioned that JMS was spectacular at the art of the flamewar? No? Well, he was. Trust this first-hand eyewitness. It was a thing of pure beauty.)

Not to delve into the tip-of-the-tip-of-the-iceberg wanker-y between B5 and DS9, but...Were the shows similar? Well, yeah. And it's more than just the surface issue of both B5 and DS9 taking place on space stations. There are some surprisingly similar thematic issues that crop up in both DS9 and B5 (and even a couple of secondary and tertiary character names look...ahem...similar). This despite the fact that the universes, worlds, races, and political intrigue (yes, there is at least one Star Trek show that actually had political intrigue) were very different between shows.


Here's the dirty little secret of DS9: It's the red-headed step-child of the Star Trek franchise. It was ignored by TPTB at Paramount because it was never "the flagship" show — that title was awarded to Next Generation or Voyager (which Paramount used to launch UPN, remember). As a result, Paramount never really put the marketing muscle behind DS9 that it put behind the other Star Trek franchises over the years.

The upside to this red-headed step-child syndrome meant that DS9 pretty much could do whatever it wanted — even if it meant making the Star Trek universe just a leeeeeeetle bit messier. As a result, DS9's point of view and attitude make it hard to know where it really fits in the great continuum of The Franchise. It simply doesn't have the optimistic, action-adventure, primary colored, and fun-was-had-by-all camaraderie of the original Star Trek. It's not the antiseptic, fun-time sail through space that both The Next Generation and Voyager was. It's not the hopeless retcon mess that Enterprise was through most of its run.

The truth is that DS9 is the kind of place where people get dirty. It's the kind of place where those dirty things have a nasty habit of sticking to people. It's the kind of place where there's an actual run-up to war and, when it finally breaks out, it actually takes several years to fight. It's the kind of place where war has consequences that last a lifetime, where people desperately read the casualty lists to see if someone they know has died, where civilizations actually rise and fall with the tide of battle.

DS9 is the kind of place where some of the main characters don't get along with each other (and never really will). It's the kind of place where everything has consequences and nothing is really solved by the end of the episode — and, in fact, may take all seven years before any resolution can be had.

DS9 is the kind of place where the Prime Directive repeatedly bites the Federation in the ass. It's the kind of place where Starfleet officers actually feel the burden of living with the Prime Directive on occasion, and the kind of place where Starfleet officers aren't above using it to stave off requests they don't want to fulfill.

DS9 is the kind of place where humans can be arrogant, racist, and condescending when dealing with other sentient species — including species that are ostensibly part of the Federation or allied with the Federation. It's the kind of place where the Federation is not necessarily right or good or even the preferable alternative for species that have even a shred of self-interest.

It's the kind of show where you're forcibly reminded over and over and over again that Starfleet, at the end of the day, is a military organization first and foremost, and not an armed adventure safari club for scientists.

It's the kind of place where the point-of-view of the non-human and non-Federaton species — like the Klingons, the Bajorans, the Ferengi, the Cardassians, and the Romulans — are actually given equal weight. So much so that there are actually episodes where you actually sometimes wonder about those crazy Federation people running around in their uniforms and trying to save the universe — whether the universe wants to be saved or not.


Okay, yeah. Definitely singing the praises there, hunh?

Anyway, while I've been undergoing my great DS9 re-watch, I was disconcerted by the fact that the first season of DS9 has aged better than the first season of B5. Part of it is because the budget for DS9 was huge in comparison to B5. So the interiors and exteriors and the special effects shots have a solid, professional look that are sometimes *ahem* lacking in B5. The other part is that the acting from the DS9 cast, while somewhat shaky as the show works out the kinks, is slightly better than the acting we saw out of most of the B5 cast. Certainly the guest stars on DS9 where head-and-shoulders better than the guest stars on B5.

The other thing that helps put first season DS9 slightly ahead of first season B5 is that DS9 came with baggage. That baggage helped DS9 as much as hurt it over the show's run, but when it comes to the traditional first season liftoff, DS9 was definitely helped. The most DS9 had to do that first season was introduce the characters and paint the situational background in broad brushstrokes (and, unlike just about every single Star Trek show that came before and after, plant the seeds for most of the story arcs that came over the next seven years). B5 had to build an entire freaking universe that first season. End result? First season B5 got stuck with lots and lots of awkward exposition to not only introduce the characters and the B5 universe, but to also "move around the furniture" (as JMS calls it) to set up the action for the remaining four years.

Although I admit that DS9 had solid advantages over B5 — especially when it comes to the traditional first-season set-up — I found myself warming almost immediately to the first season DS9 when I started re-watching. This is in contrast to B5 which — much as I love it — takes me until at least until 'The Parliament of Dreams' (7 hours' worth of watching time) before I can fully immerse myself in the B5 universe.

Oh, dear. It may turn out that in the long run, I prefer DS9 over B5 after all.

Quick episode reactions under LJ-Cuts to preserve innocent eyes...


Episodes 01 and 02: Emissary
I remember when DS9 was first unveiled, all my Trekkie friends fluffed off the idea of Star Trek on a space station. Or, to put it another way, "To boldly stay put while everyone else goes where no one has gone before."

Ironically enough, there's a certain amount of truth to that. Sometimes it's pretty damn hard to boldly stay put. Right out of the box, DS9 does signal that it's going to be a leeetle bit different than the Star Treks that take place on ships. The key phrase, one that's repeated not just in the pilot, but throughout the whole of first season is that all actions have consequences, and that some of those consequences reverberate across a lifetime.

The other thing that's different? It's stated right up front that with the exception of one character (Dr. Julian Bashir), no one wants to be in the position they're in. The Starfleet officers and the Starfleet officers' families would rather be anywhere else. The Bajorans hate the fact the Federation is here "to help" (Bajoran Major Kira explicitly compares the Federation's presence to the occupying force the Cardiassians had in place). The Cardiassians are pissed that the occupation is over and that they had to leave. The scattered nonaligned aliens figure it's a matter of time before the whole bubble collapses and are preparing to make a run for it.

In short, Commander Sisko (who really doesn't want to be here either) is walking into a hornet's nest of distrust and discontent with his unhappy, military brat of a son in tow behind him.

As a sidenote, I want to make a pause here about the character of Ben Sisko and his son, Jake. DS9 managed quite the rarity with these two. Sisko is the kind of good parent that's all too rare on television these days. He's not the perfect father, Lord knows, but he's a good father who genuinely loves his son and really is trying to carve out a good life for the two of them. And Jake is a double-rarity, especially when it comes to the Star Trek universe: a real 14-year-old boy. He's not a super genius. He's not a member of the DS9 crew either officially or unofficially. He doesn't get involved with official Starfleet drama. He is exactly what he appears to be: a good-hearted military brat and a nice boy. The relationship between Ben and Jake is one of those great relationships that really make DS9 kind of special. It has its ups-and-downs, it reads fairly true to life, and it changes as Jake grows up in the same way that most child-parent relationships change when the kids get older.

Plus, I would be remiss if I didn't state the obvious glaring rarity that Ben and Jake represent: They're both African-American actors. There's something very sad about the fact that Avery Brooks in particular is a stand out simply because he's the headliner in an ensemble cast on a long-running drama/genre SciFi show. Outside of Diahann Carroll on Julia (which ran in the late 60s through the early 70s), I can't think of any other African-American actor that has even been given the opportunity to do so. Sure, there's always Andre Braugher on Homicide: Life on the Street and Denzel Washington on St. Elsewhere, but they weren't the series leads so much as they were stand-outs in a sprawling ensemble. I'm sure there are more (there really has to be), but these are the only other examples I can bring to mind.

Anyway, back to the pilot, which is so much better than I remembered it was. Sure, it's basically a series of character introductions with only the thinnest excuse of a plot hung on it, but the character introductions are, for the most part, deftly done. There are one or two false notes (such as Odo's expository speech about his background, mostly because it's so OOC for Odo that it stretches belief), but I can understand that the writers felt that they had to get it all out on the floor (so to speak) for the audience.

However, the nice thing about the character introductions is that they're just that: introductions. The writers aren't trying to get you to love them right out of the box (I'm looking at you Voyager and Enterprise). Sisko has a severe hatred for the fan-beloved Jean-Luc Piccard and doesn't bother hiding it when the two go face-to-face. Kira is prickly, abrasive, and makes no secret of the fact that she's a Bajoran nationalist through-and-through and that she holds the Federation and the weak provisional Bajoran government in contempt. Odo spends a lot of time looking like he can't get the smell of poo out of his nose. Quark oozes slime every time he shows up on-screen. And Dr. Bashir is not just arrogant, but he also makes the mistake of bragging to the fuming Kira that he chose to come to DS9 because it's the last bit of wilderness in the galaxy where he can bring his enlightened Federation medical science. ("Doctor," Kira snaps in response, "what you call a wilderness is my home.") Even Jake whines a bit about having to live on a space station and being stuck all alone all day with only the bare-bones living quarters and no Federation equivalent of a Gameboy to keep him entertained.

In fact, the only likeable people we meet is Chief O'Brien, who's transfered from Next Generation duty to Deep Space Nine duty, a promotion for both the character and the actor. It's also probably one of the smartest moves The Franchise ever made (transferring Worf in the same manner comes in at a very close second). Colm Meaney hits the ground running right from his opening scene and doesn't once let up for the entire run of the series — so much so that he becomes the go-to guy for those angsty episodes (aka, the "Let's beat the shit out of O'Brien hour") and for a solid support when things get kind of crazy in the plot.

The other likeable character is science officer Jadzia Dax, who's got a history with Sisko. Not that kind of history (get yer minds outta the gutter). She's a joined Trill (and we learn in the episode that not all Trills get to host a Trill Worm — that's only reserved for potential hosts who prove they're worthy). It just so happens that Kurzon, the previous host for Dax (the worm), was Sisko's mentor and one of his best friends.

And here I do want to throw in a another nice relationship-type thing: This one between Sisko and Dax, although I'm not sure how much to attribute to the writing or the acting. Through the first half of the season, both Sisko and Dax spend some time feeling out the new relationship they've got as a result of a host-change. Nothing angsty, or even really in-your-face. It's more of a case that Jadzia is not Sisko's beloved mentor, and Sisko (rightfully so since it's his issue and not Jadzia's) has to come to grips with the notion that he's dealing with someone who's both an intimate friend and a complete stranger. It's interesting to see their relationship settle into one that's an easy friendship during off-duty times, and where Sisko is the superior officer when they're on duty. And, hell, I love it whenever Sisko affectionately calls the 28-year-old Jadzia (with 300-year-old Dax inside) the "old man."

And, of course, we have to get into the wormhole linking the Alpha and Gamma quadrants and the aliens who live inside it. Without it, there'd be no show. To the Federation and the other big Alpha Quadrant powers, the wormhole presents an opportunity for exploration and trade that's irresistible because it's now too hard to find the same thing in their corner of Star Trek universe. To Bajoran nationalists, it's the key to self-sufficiency and making Bajor a real power in its own right. To the Bajoran religious it's the Celestial Temple and the inhabitants (the wormhole aliens) are The Prophets — in essence, the Bajoran gods.

Gee, you don't think the wormhole is going to cause the kind of problems that's going to make just about everyone in the Alpha Quadrant wish that Sisko never found it, do you? And that's even before Really Bad Things start to happen.

For the real Trekkie people in the house, the other delights that DS9 offers is enough fannish meta to make the over-thinkers among us squeal with delight. Armin Shimerman (Principal Snyder for you Buffy fans) plays the Ferengi Quark with avaricious glee. It just so happens that he played the first Ferengi audiences ever laid eyes on back on Next Generation (a different character, of course). Marc Aliamo, who plays the always fascinating and complex Cardassian Gul Dukat, also happened to play the first Cardassian audiences ever laid eyes on back on Next Generation (also a completely different character).

I'll be the first to admit: While the pilot does its job and sets up the characters and the over-reaching story arc for the series nicely, as someone who knows how DS9 ends there are some niggling issues. The wormhole aliens (aka, The Prophets) profess repeatedly to Sisko when they have him in their clutches that they are unaware of "linear races" (the aliens don't experience time in a linear fashion, you see) and what's more, they really don't care to get to know them. While this is never retconned in an outright way, the details that emerge in later seasons pretty much shows this to be false in the details. There's an even bigger problem, which lies in Sisko himself and their reaction to him. As more of Sisko's background is revealed in the series run, their hostile reaction — not to mention the fact that they treat him like he's an unknown quantity — really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Other little retcons and problems are fairly minor. The Trills now look very different from their first appearance on Next Generation, mostly because they didn't want to cover Terry Farrell's model good looks under an inch of lumpy make-up. The Bajoran nose ridges are a lot more prominent than the ones we saw on Next Generation as well. But the real big retcon comes in the form of the Ferengi. From barely intelligent scavengers who are more a nuisance than anything else on Next Generation to a highly intelligent, very crafty race with complex rules governing their libertarian, free-market capitalist way of operating.

To be honest, though, the retcons of the Trills, Bajorans, and Ferengi while annoying to see the first time you watch the pilot, are actually forgivable as the series progresses. In large part, they're forgivable because DS9 gives audiences an easily fanwank-able reason: Next Generation is a Federation show, so that means everything is told from the point of view of the Federation characters. Deep Space Nine, for all its relatively minor faults, is not a Federation show. As a result, we are now dealing with the alien races within their own context and taking their view of matters into account. And that makes all the difference.

Some interesting general observations of "Emissary, Part 1 and 2:"

  • There's some really great character dialog used to introduce everyone. Some of the lines uttered, especially by the Starfleet characters, are downright funny. It shows the sly sense of humor of the writing staff and the comic timing of some of the actors.

  • Sisko immediately shows that he's not exactly your typical Starfleet officer when he blackmails bar-owner Quark into staying on DS9, even though Quark is convinced that it's a bad idea because it puts both his profit and his personal safety at risk.

  • The very astute observation by both Kira and Quark that the provisional government is on the brink of collapse, which mens that all the Bajoran factions that pulled together to fight off the Cardassians will then turn on each other. That means the threat of a very bloody civil war is hovering dangerously over Bajor's future.

  • Quark's even more astute observation that when governments fall, people like him are usually the first ones to get shot by the locals.

  • Terrorist acts carried out against an occupying power is seen as a good thing. Being called a terrorist (or former terrorist) is worn as a badge of pride. Personally, I can't see this same sentiment showing up in a television series being produced in the U.S.'s current political climate, can you?

  • The wormhole alien sequence does have its cheesy moments, but all minor cheese is wiped away thanks to the deft visual illustration of what "You have always been here" (the line uttered by Kosh in B5) actually means — at least in the Star Trek universe.



Overall, I think this re-watch started off with a bang. I can't wait to move on to the rest of Season 1.

[identity profile] wesleysgirl.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
This was interesting reading! I've never really watched either show -- I think I've seen small bits of a handful of DS9 eps, but never any B5 as far as I know. I've also been harboring the mistaken impression that DS9 was a "fairly recent" show -- I know it came some time after TNG and some time before Enterprise -- but that B5 was an "old" show. I never would have guessed they were airing at the same time!

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
If you want an idea of how old DS9 is, Armin Shermerman was playing Principal Snyder Buffy S1-S3 and Quark on DS9 S5-S7 the same time. Considering how large his role was on DS9, it's an amazing feat (I remember reading an interview with AS where he said that the DS9 people and the BtVS people did go above and beyond to accommodate his filming schedule for both shows). What really makes it impressive is that Quark is the diametric opposite of Snyder and AS pulled off both characters without so much as breaking sweat.

Actually, DS9 started a year earlier than B5, but only because JMS had a harder time raising money for B5. In fact, that's the core of the wankery between the two shows. :-)

It turns out that when JMS was pitching B5 around to various studios, one of the studios he hit up was Paramount, who passed on the project. In the end, Warner Brothers took him up on the deal.

Now, depending on who you listen to, either Paramount stole JMS's basic idea for their new Star Trek series (JMS's claim) or Paramount had already interdependently come up with the idea before JMS ever made a pitch and they passed because it was too close to the concept they already had on the drawing boards (Bergma's and Berman's claim).

A third claim by some self-professed "industry insiders" was that Paramount really did have DS9 on the drawing board before JMS made his pitch to them, but had allowed him to come in because they wanted to get a heads-up of his plans (think of it as the Hollywood version of corporate spying).

You also some interesting meta-y things going on, too. For example, one occasional guest actor on B5 saw his character killed off with no warning because he had a scheduling conflict. The scheduling conflict? He was already contracted to play a guest character over on DS9 who just happened to be similar to his B5 character. Oooops!

Also pretty funny: The two shows shared a lot of "guest actors." I swear you'd see big name guest star appear on DS9, and within weeks they'd show up on B5. Same thing in reverse. It was actually pretty freakin' hilarious to watch in real time.

I think the two production teams finally buried the hatchet after Majel Barrett (Nurse Chapel/Luazanna Troi/Gene Roddenberry's widow) did a guest stint on B5. There's still a little residual defensiveness on both sides there, but it's nowhere near the venom you saw from TPTB on both shows at the beginning of their respective runs.

What's also interesting is that several writers from DS9 have come out and admitted that they viewed their competition as B5 and not the other concurrently running Star Trek shows. I think that's part of the reason why the tone is so different with DS9 than, say, Next Generation and Voyager.

Yet, even though DS9 is kind of the red-headed step-child of the Star Trek universe, it did spawn an awful story points that got very quickly incorporate into later versions. The biggest one was the introduction of the Federation's version of the CIA, Section 31.

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[identity profile] jmthane.livejournal.com - 2007-09-01 12:31 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I remember some of the wank *G*. Good times. Good times.

I rewatched DS9 on a recent cable run and I also had a lot of fun doing it, I think DS9 didn't hit the rerun circuit nearly as much as TNG did so a lot of people only got it on the first run through.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Somebody, somewhere needs to find the Usenet bitchfights and frame those suckers. The wank had it all: trolls that wouldn't quit, regular invasions by fans that hated your show, actually PTB getting actively involved in smack-downs.

*sigh*

They just don't make 'em like that any more.

As for syndication, you're right. B5 was syndicated quite a bit before its release on DVD. And Next Generation was and still is syndicated to death. Hell, even Voyager hit the syndication circuit before DS9. I think two years ago was the first time DS9 hit the airwaves since first run, so, yeah, it really is kind of the "unknown Star Trek" for a lot of people.

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syndication

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[identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, interesting. I haven't watched B5 or DS9 since first run....

The wormhole alien sequence does have its cheesy moments, but all minor cheese is wiped away thanks to the deft visual illustration of what "You have always been here" (the line uttered by Kosh in B5) actually means — at least in the Star Trek universe.

As soon as I read this I remembered it. Sisko reliving moments with his late wife while a nonlinear energy creature asks 'why do you exist here?'

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 01:17 am (UTC)(link)
Or how he keeps going back to the point of his wife's death and the wormhole aliens keep asking him that question over and over again until Sisko finally gets it.

I mean, damn...that was some good acting from Brooks there.

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[identity profile] psychoadept.livejournal.com - 2007-09-01 01:39 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] angevin2.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh man, I love DS9, though I was disappointed in the last season. But it was, in general, full of awesome.

I wish I could afford the DVDs...

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
I actually kind of liked S7, even if there were more episodes where they were arse-ing about than in previous seasons. I think a lot of that was because they were waiting to hear from Paramount if they were canceled or not, and when the word came down they had to rush to resolve everything.

But, yeah, DS9 is full of awesome.

[identity profile] willowgreen.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I never got to watch all of B5 or DS9, but I've always liked DS9 best of all the Star Trek series, for all the reasons you mention. I always saw the retconning of the Ferengi more as growth in the Federation's view of them.

Maybe I'll head back to DS9 when I'm finally done with Farscape!

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
See? That's totally my fanwank for the Ferengi, too. *grins* The Federation's view of the Ferengi changed.

It's kind of like how the Klingons in the later Star Trek shows are practically a different species from the ones on ToS.

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[identity profile] devohoneybee.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
ah, that brings back some GOOD memories. (and btw, I watched and loved both shows as they aired, too.)

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:09 am (UTC)(link)
See? We're not so weird, are we? *grins*

[identity profile] tsiankiio.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Casa del kiio just finished the last season of DS9 last night. I'd only ever seen bits and pieces of it before, because I was strongly on the B5 side of the flamewar during first run (Ah, my first internet fandom, I remember spending hours download one line of dialogue in .wav format). It was much better than I remembered (it's still not B5).

I really enjoyed Kira during her bitter and angry stage, and especially watching it now, I noticed the same thing you did. She was a terrorist, she was damn good at her job, she helped free her people, and she got to be a good guy.

I loved the final outcome, and Gul Dukat's and the Cardassian arc and how it mirrors the Bajoran one.

I think my fannish experience to this point directly increased my enjoyment of the show, that and the fact I haven't watched all of B5 recently, so instead of comparing every scene to B5, I could pick up the other themes and visuals. (Sisko and Buffy share a desert location. Wormhole Aliens are Oma Desala, etc).

As for African American lead actors, I don't think there are many more. We were talking about just this, because Chris Judge has announced his lead in a new series, and talks about how he'll be the first lead African American in a serious hour long tv show. Sisko was the only name any one came up with.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
It's so. freaking. sad. isn't it?

Someone really needs to tell Judge that Brook beat him on the "first lead African American in a serious hour long tv show." For serous.

*gets dreamy*

When I was in university, they used to film Spencer: For Hire (and hour long private detective show) on my campus quite a bit. Avery Brooks played a supporting character named Hawk. I got to watch the man film in his pre-Sisko days. As it so happens, he was filming a boxing scene, which means, HALF-NAKED BROOKS! \0/

That man is fiiiiii-iiiiine. *fans self* Not to mention this gorgeous smile that knocks. you. dead. I'm telling you, all us college wimmin were a-swooning so hard you thought we all had a the vapors.

[identity profile] m-mcgregor.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, another member of the great LJ-SciFi-(re)Watching of '07. They'll be talking about this one for years, I tells ya. I just watched DS9 all the way through myself a few months back and quite enjoyed it. I'd never actually had a chance to watch the whole thing in order before. Back when it was originally airing my local station pre-empted it all the time, so I saw a lot of episodes out of order or with gaps. Watching it in order shows that it really is a different animal from TNG, especially after the third season or so. It's too bad the quality of its storytelling and the risk taking it took wasn't continued, although I'd say that the new Battlestar Galactica is its spiritual successor (since new BSG is to me Ronald Moore's attempt at taking the lessons he learned on DS9 and then writing what he would have made Voyager into, namely: a good show instead of uh...a not-so-good-show.)

I think it's also pretty easy to get into DS9 since it eases you into its new (for Star Trek) brand of storytelling. The first season is very similar to TNG to me, but there are the little pieces here and there that hint at the stuff to come.

You've pointed out some of the minor continuity issues, which I always thought was pretty unfortunate. My biggest complaint about DS9 has always been that I think they weren't given enough leeway to really tell the kinds of stories they wanted to tell. Despite not being the flagship show, and despite having more latitude than TNG or the mess that Voyager became, it still never quite went 100% into its storytelling style. There were many times it would take one step backwards for every two steps forwards. In the end they wound up really breathing some fresh life into Trek, but I always thought they could have gone even further. Unfortunately, Voyager and then Enterprise were humongous leaps backwards in sophistication.

I guess for me Star Trek kind of ended when DS9 did. Ah well.

I hope you enjoy re-watching, and I'll be looking forward to your thoughts. Us slaves to the sci-fi television have to stick together. After Babylon 5 for me comes the re-watching of Farscape.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
The writers of DS9 really had a hard job overall. They were willing to push it all the way (witness: Moore and BSG), but there were times when they had to really fight to do some of the more basic stuff they wanted to do on that show.

The fact that they got to do as much as they did was due to their red-headed stepchild status and (according Moore himself) the late Michael Piller constantly going to the mat with Paramount. It was a case of "won some-lost some." And to give Moore credit, he really did fight to continue Voyager in the same vein, and got his ass fired for his trouble.

So, in the end, my hat's off to the ink-stained wretches over on DS9. Even when they didn't quite get what they were reaching for, they really were trying to expand the Star Trek universe in different direction. I think that's what makes DS9 so much fun in its way. It is seeing something that's so familiar translated just a leeeeetle bit differently from what went on before and (sadly) what came after.

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[identity profile] chaletian.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, the Babylon 5/DS9 thing... I just thought I would come and share my experiences *g*. I watched Babylon 5 faithfully for the first four series, bought the DVDs, and have since watched it all again several times (not series five... still, after all this time, psyching myself up for B5 without Ivanova), and it is one of my favourite TV shows of all time. Sadly, I would agree that the first series has not aged well. I watched it again recently after a gap of three or four years, and, to my chagrin, found it slightly risible in places, though, as you say, I think this is partly due to the need for so much exposition to set up the rest of the plot arc. I do think series 3 and 4, particularly, are brilliant examples of the genre, though.

As for DS9, I greeted new Star Trek with joy (long-time fan of TOS, having watched the repeats on BBC2 endlessly), and watched and enjoyed the first series on video, courtesy of a friend, but subsequently lost track of it, largely because I was out of sync of the TV schedule by then (and partly, admittedly, because I was already watching B5, Buffy and, by then, I think, Dawson's Creek after school, and there was only so much "crap" TV my mother could take *g*). I never caught up with it, though I did enjoy the occasional episode I saw. I don't know, though, I always saw it as a shadow of B5 in some ways - Star Trek trying to get, I don't know, more complex and darker than usual, but still being all glossy and Fereration standard perfect underneath, if that makes sense. Heigh ho. Am probably rambling...

[identity profile] amireal.livejournal.com 2007-08-31 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Season 5 of Babylon 5 is-- tough. Because it spends 12 episodes faffing around. They're worth watching IMO, but it's not what preceded it. And then the back half of the season comes up and it's just AMAZING. Seriously. Amazing.

/pimp

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[identity profile] psychoadept.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
I recently finished rewatching DS9, myself, and am also a diehard B5 fan. I can't wait to hear more about your reactions to the rest of the series. I love them both, and though I'll probably always consider B5 my primary fandom, I don't think I could make an argument for one being better than the other.

Personally, I thought the first couple of seasons of DS9 were weaker than the first Season of B5, at least in terms of story coherency, even in the standalone episodes. And I say that having seen the first half of the first season of B5 so many times that I just can't watch Soul Hunter or Infection anymore. There are at least a couple of episodes where I felt like the writers had set up a great dilemma for the characters, then copped out in the resolution by crying "prime directive!" or something similar. I also felt like Kira was the only character with really meaty character development for a while.

The major difference between B5 and DS9 for me, acting aside (and you're absolutely right about that), is that when I'm watching B5 I always have a sense of the purpose in everything, whereas DS9 has a much more seat-of-the-pants feel (the in-show retcons don't help). I don't find either one to be inherently superior to the other, but as many times as I've watched B5, I found the occasional unrelated-to-anything else Ferengi episodes and such refreshing. Especially once the big war gets going, it's a nice reminder that life still goes on, and not everyone is totally obsessed with the fighting.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:19 am (UTC)(link)
Honestly? Ask me next week which I prefer, and I'll probably be waffling again.

When it comes to first seasons, though, I tend to genre shows a bit of pass-fail grade because often it's sort of like the shakedown cruise for everyone. When it comes to first seasons all I care about is: does it keep me entertained and am I interested in seeing more. If the answer is "yes" on both counts, then I'm happy.

But you're right: DS9 doesn't really break out of the episodic mindset until somewhere near the end of S2 and that big shiny reset button complete with technobabble is a plague on the first two seasons especially.

And without a doubt: DS9's arc wasn't ever nearly as water-tight as B5's.

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[identity profile] nebris.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:14 am (UTC)(link)
I am a proud and loud Niner. It is the best work ever done in The Franchise as a whole. The closest any of the other shows got was "Voyager's" Year of Hell (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Year_of_Hell).

I watched most of DS9 in reruns. The local UPN station ran them two and three at a time five nights a week at around two in the morning, so I got massive doses in regular chunks. This was during Season Six, I believe.

I always dug Trek, but when I saw an episode (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Duet) that was a Trek version of The Man in The Glass Booth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_Glass_Booth), my little mind was blown. And what other Trek show would have a Cardassian exile and a Starfleet officer conspire to assassinate a Romulan Senator (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/In_the_Pale_Moonlight) - and kill everyone on board his ship - in order to trick his race into declaring war on upon The Dominion. And then there's Section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31).

While much of this is an anathema to 'Trek loyalists' as it sullies their starry eyed view of Trek, it is far more realistic and honest about the nature of the human condition. And mighty fine drama because of that.

~M~

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:27 am (UTC)(link)
*clutches heart*

Maaaaaan, I *heart* 'Duet.' When I saw that S1 episode back in the day, I knew that DS9 was gonna be a special little Star Trek. And 'In the Pale Moonlight' is my number 1 favorite DS9 episode with a bullet.

I think the Star Trek label really hurt DS9 as much as it helped. It cemented its red-headed stepchild nature with a lot of Trekkies because "it wasn't Trek" and it scared away a lot of people who would've otherwise watched it because they didn't like the Trek universe.

What's really funny is how often DS9 episodes show up on the "top episodes" in the Star Trek franchise. Here's a pretty good "top 50" link that spans ToS through Voyager: http://www.trekmania.net/conference/episodes/top_50_intro.htm.

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[identity profile] szandara.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:26 am (UTC)(link)
I skimmed over the episode reviews since DS9 S1 is technically AHM's birthday present and thus we wont' start watching till September 10 :)

But I'm really hoping that DS9 is better written than B5, because (especially in Season 1) B5 has a tendency to be...less than subtle. I have a great dislike of being hit over the head with THE MORAL OF THE STORY, and B5 does that. There's a lot of tell, not show--or tell, then show, then tell again with a big preachy speech by one of the main characters in case any of their less intellectualy endowed viewers missed the point.

B5 gets better about it as the seasons go on, but it's a bit irritating.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
JMS admits in the commentary for some of the episodes that exposition is totally his weak point. *grins* He more than once points out that if he could go back and re-write, he'd approach a few things a lot more differently.

DS9 is more light-hearted than B5, especially in the early seasons. And as some of the people commenting with the DS9 love point out, the first two seasons of DS9 is fairly close to the Trek spirit in execution, if not in tone and subject matter.

I think that characters are more approachable on a human level than, say, Next Generation because they're a little less the Starfleet ideal and none of the characters are really considered Starfleet's best of the best.

Honestly, I think you probably will like it better than B5. I go back and forth between the two, depending on what issue I'm considering. B5 has a tighter storyarc (definitely), but there are times when DS9's mytharc runs more smoothly.

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[identity profile] singer-d.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
Interesting read. I was a big fan of DS9 in its first two seasons, especially as it found its stride at the end of the first season, starting with "Progress" and reaching its crescendo in "Duet."

I found B5 impossible to watch - bad acting, terrible dialog, insanely stereotyped characters - and was terribly disappointed as I had expected to love the show for its adherence to real science.

In my opinion DS9's writing quality disappeared almost entirely after the second season, when they fired their head writer Peter Allan Fields. DS9 Season two was unsurpassed in the entire Trek franchise - they blasted out of the gate with the three-part opener and never slowed down, with one terrific episode after the next, many examining complex moral issues without providing any happy endings. Or at least that's how I remember it, not having viewed it in a decade or so.

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
Much as a think that first two seasons were solid, I don't think DS9 really took off until S3 with the build-up to the war arc.

Different strokes, I guess. :-)

The first season of B5, it's true, could be downright painful to watch at times, but it is one of those shows that really took off starting a few episodes into S2 and didn't let up until the end of S4. The first half of S5 slumped very badly, but the second half ended on a really high note.

But, definitely, the overall acting on DS9 was pretty much better throughout the show's run. No question.

[identity profile] julia-here.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
I love both DS9 and B5, and watched both imperfectly in first run (DS9 because the local station carried it at 6pm Saturdays, which was not a great time for a family with young kids whowanted to go play on weekends, B5 because it was often syndicated to stations which we couldn't receive (we didn't get cable until 1998!) and then religiously when Sci-Fi ran them over the past few years. I had favorite characters and story-lines in each, and would rewatch some episodes frequently if I could afford the dvds.

And I hate that Crusade was cancelled because it was fun.

The series were similar only at the coarsest resolution possible: the space station setting and the conflict with alien enemies both subtleand overt. It's like comparing one-sentence descriptions ofFarscape and Firefly, which I did when Firefly was first announced, and calling the second "derivative" when in fact the tone and psychology of the stories were entirely distinctive.

What I wonder, though, is how long it will be until we can have any SF like B5, like Dark Angel, even like Farscape, where the rebels are the good guys andestablished authority is a force to be struggled against.

Julia, wishing a pox on Berman and Braga just because I always need to at this time of the afternoon

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 12:56 am (UTC)(link)
*nods*

I remember re-watching B5 and just cringing with some of the plotlines because: 1) it hit awfully close to home sometimes and; 2) there's no way in hell that would be handwaved by any network today.

The whole Bajoran occupation theme in DS9? I cannot imagine Paramount being "okay" with that these days, especially given the terminology used to refer to the Bajorans who fought Cardassian occupation and the language used by the Cardassians themselves about the occupation. I just don't see it happening again on U.S. television for a long, long, loooooong time to come.

Then again, the new Battlestar Galactica has pulled off some things in its run that has left me floored. Why Universal or SciFi didn't step and squash some things remains a mystery for the ages. Not that I'm complaining, mind you, but there's a reason why Ron Moore keeps insisting that real-life political events have absolutely no bearing on who the BSG writers write the show.

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[identity profile] callmesandy.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
So, I rented and watched the entirety of B5 last year or so and I have to say, it never really worked for me, except in little bits. I thought it was good, I admired the continuity and worldbuilding, I liked many of the actors, but, oddly, on DVD, it felt like a slog. I have yet to watch s7 of DS9 (it's here from netflix, but my dvr is bursting) but I've enjoyed it more. Partly, I think, because the Star Trek part, to me, means the aliens are less alien. If that makes sense. Delenn is a fascinating character, but she's also alien in a way that I often found her too perfect and too lacking in humor. And she wasn't , but she was also not-human and actually a character that seemed to have been raised and grown in a non-human society that didn't have our values and reflected that. Where the Bajorans, Cardassians, etc, alien, but still translate to me somehow?

This, I think, is a clear sign that I'll never be fannish about sci-fi shows (while still enjoying them) because I need that humanity thing. Well, except Futurama, but that's a whole nother thing. :)

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 01:28 am (UTC)(link)
What's really sad is when they let Mia Furlan (who played Delenn) be a little goofy, she made Delenn so endearing. As B5 spun out more and more, the little bit of goofiness they allowed her just vaporized. I admit there were more than a few episodes where I started shouting, "Shut up, Delenn!"

I had no problems with G'Kar or Londo though. I loved them through most of the series and thought they were a lot more relatable than the humans at times. But, yeah, there are sections of B5 that can be a bit of a slog due to heavy-handed exposition.

Although, to be honest, DS9 had its moments, too, where you wanted to strangle the writers.

I love them both, but in different ways.

[identity profile] psychoadept.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
Do you mind if I link this post for the other DS9 fans on my flist?

[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 01:50 am (UTC)(link)
My policy is that all public posts are freely linkable. :-)

Since the post is public, be my guest.

[identity profile] evertruth.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
You've completely made me fall in love with DS9 all over again! My parents are both big Trekkies, so I grew up with all of the series. For some reason, I remember having the biggest crush on Gul Dukat...and I absolutely adored Dax. And, of course, Quark and Odo's love/hate relationship was wonderful.

I'll have to add the DS9 dvds to my wish list on Amazon. =)

[identity profile] darkhavens.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 02:43 am (UTC)(link)
I've only ever caught occasional eps of DS9 so story arcs never made much impact on me, but I did enjoy what I saw.Reading this post and the comments, I remember a hell of a lot more than I thought I did, and I certainly remember that I liked DS9 better than the other shows in the franchise. It had teeth. *g*

B5, on the other hand, was my sci-fi drug of choice. I loved that show from the beginnning - creaky acting, wobbly scenery and all. A couple of my flisters expressed their interest in taking a look at it about a year ago, and I shamelessly pimped like mad, pulling character names and details out of nowhere, as I'd only ever seen it in it's original run in the UK, many years ago.

Last Christmas, I gave in to my baser urges and bought the B5 Complete Universe box set off Amazon, including all the movies (even the godawful Rangers hideosity) and Crusade. I mainlined a couple of discs a day every day for several weeks. (God, the litter was unbelievable! Each season's box individually wrapped in cellophane, each disc individually wrapped inside those box sets, and every single disc came with it's own glossy little insert stressing the evils of DVD piracy. That's a lot of cellophane and a lot of antipiracy ranting.)

And now they've got yet more stories coming out of the B5 universe! I have the first one on pre-order already. :D

(And now I feel the need to have a Kosh icon.)

[identity profile] spikendru.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, interesting post! I sporadically watched DS9 when it first aired, but I haven't seen it since, and now you've made me want to go out and rewatch it from the beginning.

The Trills now look very different from their first appearance on Next Generation. . . . The Bajoran nose ridges are a lot more prominent than the ones we saw on Next Generation as well. But the real big retcon comes in the form of the Ferengi.

That made me laugh. Of course, the biggest ST retcon ever was the amazing Klingon mutation. It must have been something weird in the water, (or: see later explanation) because after eons of looking exactly like Vulcans/Romulans, they suddenly mutated into looking like vampires with the heavy brow ridges. I laughed when I saw the "second generation" Klingons, and after BtVS aired, I decided that obviously vampires attacked the Klingon home worlds and turned everyone! That's the wankiest explanation I could come up with. *g*

[identity profile] ad-kay.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
Now I'm gonna hafta get the S9 DVDs, darn you!

I caught a few eps of DS9 during its original run, and liked it. But it was always overshadowed by B5. Often, I'd watch an episode of B5, and be so blown away I'd turn off the TV afterward. I just couldn't watch anything else.
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[personal profile] tabaqui 2007-09-01 03:09 am (UTC)(link)
I remember when DS9 first ran - we didn't have a tv, so we were watching it downstairs with a friend and we were *so* excited! And we loved it. From the very first - the torn up station that had been left in shambles for the Federation to 'inherit', Kira, the 'shark-nosed chick' whom we *adored*, Odo, Sisko... Oh, man. I don't think there was a character we didn't like.

We hadn't watched Next Generation at all, or Voyager, and never did see any B5, even though i heard good things about it.

Now i want to re-watch, because it really was an awesome, awesome show.

*and omg, Dax is hot. so hot.*
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[personal profile] fishsanwitt 2007-09-01 04:46 am (UTC)(link)
I really took to DS9, whereas I never really liked either Voyager or Enterprise. Even ST:TNG felt 'cold' to me.
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[personal profile] white_hart 2007-09-01 07:47 am (UTC)(link)
I never really got into DS9; the first season aired in the UK in 1995, when I had just left university, and only had access to a black-and-white portable TV, and my housemates frequently wanted to watch the other side. Besides, I'd caught enough B5 during summers at my parents' to dismiss DS9 as 'Trek ripping off B5' (your comment upthread about DS9 actually starting first is interesting, because it didn't here. And we were still working through TNG.)

I did realise my mistake when I caught odd episodes of later seasons, but by then it was really difficult to catch up, especially as I'd catch them randomly and satellite was about 3 seasons ahead of terrestrial. I do keep wondering about getting the DVDS, though. And Amazon has S1 for £17.98...

[identity profile] rileysaplank.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 08:06 am (UTC)(link)
DS9 is the kind of place where some of the main characters don't get along with each other (and never really will).

And, according to Armin Shimmerman at the Prime convention a few years ago the personal relationships between the actors tended to mirror, to a lesser extent, the relationships between the characters.

[identity profile] omegar.livejournal.com 2007-09-01 08:18 am (UTC)(link)
To be honest I loved DS9 and B5.

I can't remember which order they were shown in over here, just it took a while for DS9 hit this side of the water.

I remember watching B5 on Mondays at 6. I remember watching episodes after episode of DS9 on VHS from the video store, ahead of what was due to be on the TV. (that's a clue to how large a delay there was to it arriving.)

DS9 showed that season arcs worked. B5 showed that series Arc's could work. In the end though Season arc's tend to be better, if seeds are planted in one season for the next its the best of both worlds.

Of course Series arc's suck badly when not done right. the problem with B5 is that it has given us shows that tried to live up to the 5 year arc thing, and well didn't survive their first season, and of course Lost!

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