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Borders-verse flashbacks: Gor
So here I am multi-tasking. Working on The Last Tin Soldier (beta notes have resulted in some changes all the way to the very end), checking out the Deep Space Nine episodes I can watch for free online at TV-Links, and checking my FList before toddling off to bed.
So, here I am, riding the kind of high that I can only get by basking in the awesome that is Kira Nerys, when I spy with my little eye from theantijoss_on_IJ that Gor of Losers is making a comeback.
Thanks to Dark Horse.
My irony meter just went off the scale.
Not to mention that I now have whiplash. From Kira to Gor. I need a frigging neck brace.
I tried to read a Gor book. Once. In junior high. (Although I'm very sure that if my dad knew, he would've had a heart attack. No. Make that a zillion heart-attacks.) I'm pretty sure that Gor pretty much planted my aversion-to-writing-smut seed. That shit was just ugly, yo. Me not a big fan of slave games, even consensual slave games. Although if it floats your boat, go and float, says I. Just don't make me wear the ball-gag and nipple clamps and we're cool.
But even with my relatively innocent eyes, I could damn well spot a rape fantasy. Rape fantasies in and of themselves aren't bad, per se (even if it gets my squick running so hard that my knee starts jerking, if you get my drift). But this was a rape fantasy of a whole 'nother color. This was a rape fantasy for men. It's the really, really ugly shit where all women want it, all women deserve it, and all women will get it in the end. Failure to accept rape as a way of life is a brutal death sentence.
Why?
Because "no" ain't an option for women in Gor-world. Not when they're branded. Not someone chunks a slave collar on them. Not when they get assigned the role of "pleasure" slave, "reserve (virgin)" slave, or "scut work (not sexually attractive)" slave. Not when they get chained to a stone floor because they try to say no. Not ever.
Quick question kiddies: What's the difference between someone who's free, and someone who's a slave?
Answer: It's one word. "No." The power to say it. The power to think it. The power to act on it. One. Word.
Hunh. Guess the Gor books were edumacational after all. Who says the series is a total waste?
Well, actually, I do. Not even Dianetics comes close in the worthless books sweepstakes.
I remember my Bordersverse days rather fondly. I remember most of the customers rather fondly. I remember most of my co-workers rather fondly.
Know what I don't remember fondly? This one regular customer. He was a white male, always impeccably dressed in semi-expensive clothes. Glasses. Loafers. Sandy hair bordering on brown. About my age, more or less. Clean-cut. He looked like the type of guy who was involved in community service, or volunteering for some political organization or another.
Shit. I remember exactly how he looked, despite the distance of some years.
I also remember that he had this vibe. Long before I ever talked to him, I got the "something is just not right with that boy" radio signals so loud that my one tooth filling rattled every time he walked through the door. Straight ladies, gay men...I don't have to explain that whole serial-killer-in-disguise vibe to you, do I? I'm sure you've all had it once or twice. It's a feeling you don't forget. For the rest of you who don't know, the best way to explain it is as if someone's shadow just passed over your grave.
Anyway, I'd seen him around off and on for several months (and I always made it a habit to be elsewhere when he was looking for help). One day I didn't move fast enough and he got me.
Guess what our boy was looking for?
If you didn't say Gor books, then you haven't been paying attention.
Right. Needless to say, my brain went to DefCon 1 so fast that it's a wonder the word "tilt" show up on my eyeballs. Having no choice, however, I had to help Gor-man. A quick look into the database showed that we actually had a copy of the first book around (how, I don't know since they were out of print for a looooong time by that point). It wasn't in science fiction (Thank God!), but in erotica.
But that's not the real creepy part. The real creepy part is that Gor-man was talking about that damn book and how philosophical it was and how deep it was and shit like that. And he was asking my opinion about it.
Holy tomato, I thought to myself. Is this dude actually feeling me out about Gor?
Indeed he was. To be honest, I don't think he was hitting on me. I think he was on a little power trip. Obviously he saw my reaction when he asked for Gor, so I suspected that this guy — who towered over me by a good 6 inches — was trying to rattle my cage.
All he got for his trouble was my serene bookstore look: the one perfected over several years and honed in the fires of born-again customers trying to convert me to the Gospel according to Tim LaHaye, teenagers sneaking into the erotica section, and little kids running rampant in the children's section.
It's a look that's somewhat mask-like, coolly polite, vaguely condescending, and gives the cusomter abso-fraggin'-lutely nothing for their trouble.
Nothing pisses off a power-tripping customer more than that cool, polite wall of hell. They can't get over it, can't get around it, and can't dig under it. Hell, they can't even complain to the store manager about it. In short, they have nuffing! Once that mask is on, you will win power battle every. single. time. Plus, you get the joy of seeing a power-tripping customer go completely out of his or her tree.
Anyway, in the end, I advised Gor-man that if he wanted other books in the series, he'd have to trawl used bookstores, as almost the entire series was out of print. In fact, I expressed polite puzzlement that we had the first book in the series at all, while he expressed shock and horror that it was in the erotica section and not the science fiction section where, in his humble opinion, it belonged.
I saw Gor-man after that, of course (he was, after all, a regular). But he never asked me to help him out again. I did ring him up a few times though. His taste in reading material did nothing to dispel the kree-pee.
Anyway, if you want to be completely creeped out before bed, I highly recommend 7 year-old article from Salon about Gor enthusiasts recreating the series for real. The article is old enough that it's not tucked behind Salon's usual wall o' ads. It's totally free for the reading.
And per theantijoss_on_IJ, check out what Girl Wonder has to say about the Gor revival. Tamorah Pierce has a few choice words, too. Bellatrys_on_LJ has a whole collection of posts on Gor (scroll down to get to the really good, hard-core analysis of Gor).
In the meantime, I'll be hoping like hell that Dark Horse loses oodles of money and earns a ton of bad publicity for trying to revive Gor.
Now I must cleanse my mind. Yeeeessss. I think I will watch the 'Crossover' episode of Deep Space Nine. Evil Kira in leather. It doesn't get any better than that.
X-posted to IJ, GJ, and JF
So, here I am, riding the kind of high that I can only get by basking in the awesome that is Kira Nerys, when I spy with my little eye from theantijoss_on_IJ that Gor of Losers is making a comeback.
Thanks to Dark Horse.
My irony meter just went off the scale.
Not to mention that I now have whiplash. From Kira to Gor. I need a frigging neck brace.
I tried to read a Gor book. Once. In junior high. (Although I'm very sure that if my dad knew, he would've had a heart attack. No. Make that a zillion heart-attacks.) I'm pretty sure that Gor pretty much planted my aversion-to-writing-smut seed. That shit was just ugly, yo. Me not a big fan of slave games, even consensual slave games. Although if it floats your boat, go and float, says I. Just don't make me wear the ball-gag and nipple clamps and we're cool.
But even with my relatively innocent eyes, I could damn well spot a rape fantasy. Rape fantasies in and of themselves aren't bad, per se (even if it gets my squick running so hard that my knee starts jerking, if you get my drift). But this was a rape fantasy of a whole 'nother color. This was a rape fantasy for men. It's the really, really ugly shit where all women want it, all women deserve it, and all women will get it in the end. Failure to accept rape as a way of life is a brutal death sentence.
Why?
Because "no" ain't an option for women in Gor-world. Not when they're branded. Not someone chunks a slave collar on them. Not when they get assigned the role of "pleasure" slave, "reserve (virgin)" slave, or "scut work (not sexually attractive)" slave. Not when they get chained to a stone floor because they try to say no. Not ever.
Quick question kiddies: What's the difference between someone who's free, and someone who's a slave?
Answer: It's one word. "No." The power to say it. The power to think it. The power to act on it. One. Word.
Hunh. Guess the Gor books were edumacational after all. Who says the series is a total waste?
Well, actually, I do. Not even Dianetics comes close in the worthless books sweepstakes.
I remember my Bordersverse days rather fondly. I remember most of the customers rather fondly. I remember most of my co-workers rather fondly.
Know what I don't remember fondly? This one regular customer. He was a white male, always impeccably dressed in semi-expensive clothes. Glasses. Loafers. Sandy hair bordering on brown. About my age, more or less. Clean-cut. He looked like the type of guy who was involved in community service, or volunteering for some political organization or another.
Shit. I remember exactly how he looked, despite the distance of some years.
I also remember that he had this vibe. Long before I ever talked to him, I got the "something is just not right with that boy" radio signals so loud that my one tooth filling rattled every time he walked through the door. Straight ladies, gay men...I don't have to explain that whole serial-killer-in-disguise vibe to you, do I? I'm sure you've all had it once or twice. It's a feeling you don't forget. For the rest of you who don't know, the best way to explain it is as if someone's shadow just passed over your grave.
Anyway, I'd seen him around off and on for several months (and I always made it a habit to be elsewhere when he was looking for help). One day I didn't move fast enough and he got me.
Guess what our boy was looking for?
If you didn't say Gor books, then you haven't been paying attention.
Right. Needless to say, my brain went to DefCon 1 so fast that it's a wonder the word "tilt" show up on my eyeballs. Having no choice, however, I had to help Gor-man. A quick look into the database showed that we actually had a copy of the first book around (how, I don't know since they were out of print for a looooong time by that point). It wasn't in science fiction (Thank God!), but in erotica.
But that's not the real creepy part. The real creepy part is that Gor-man was talking about that damn book and how philosophical it was and how deep it was and shit like that. And he was asking my opinion about it.
Holy tomato, I thought to myself. Is this dude actually feeling me out about Gor?
Indeed he was. To be honest, I don't think he was hitting on me. I think he was on a little power trip. Obviously he saw my reaction when he asked for Gor, so I suspected that this guy — who towered over me by a good 6 inches — was trying to rattle my cage.
All he got for his trouble was my serene bookstore look: the one perfected over several years and honed in the fires of born-again customers trying to convert me to the Gospel according to Tim LaHaye, teenagers sneaking into the erotica section, and little kids running rampant in the children's section.
It's a look that's somewhat mask-like, coolly polite, vaguely condescending, and gives the cusomter abso-fraggin'-lutely nothing for their trouble.
Nothing pisses off a power-tripping customer more than that cool, polite wall of hell. They can't get over it, can't get around it, and can't dig under it. Hell, they can't even complain to the store manager about it. In short, they have nuffing! Once that mask is on, you will win power battle every. single. time. Plus, you get the joy of seeing a power-tripping customer go completely out of his or her tree.
Anyway, in the end, I advised Gor-man that if he wanted other books in the series, he'd have to trawl used bookstores, as almost the entire series was out of print. In fact, I expressed polite puzzlement that we had the first book in the series at all, while he expressed shock and horror that it was in the erotica section and not the science fiction section where, in his humble opinion, it belonged.
I saw Gor-man after that, of course (he was, after all, a regular). But he never asked me to help him out again. I did ring him up a few times though. His taste in reading material did nothing to dispel the kree-pee.
Anyway, if you want to be completely creeped out before bed, I highly recommend 7 year-old article from Salon about Gor enthusiasts recreating the series for real. The article is old enough that it's not tucked behind Salon's usual wall o' ads. It's totally free for the reading.
And per theantijoss_on_IJ, check out what Girl Wonder has to say about the Gor revival. Tamorah Pierce has a few choice words, too. Bellatrys_on_LJ has a whole collection of posts on Gor (scroll down to get to the really good, hard-core analysis of Gor).
In the meantime, I'll be hoping like hell that Dark Horse loses oodles of money and earns a ton of bad publicity for trying to revive Gor.
Now I must cleanse my mind. Yeeeessss. I think I will watch the 'Crossover' episode of Deep Space Nine. Evil Kira in leather. It doesn't get any better than that.
X-posted to IJ, GJ, and JF
no subject
1. Waaay back in the late '70's, early '80's, in high school, I worked for WaldenBooks. This was when we had those Godawful paper inventory sheets.
I handled the SF section, and I kept telling the purchasing folks, yep, we still had five copies each of those Gor books. They just weren't sellin'! Eventually I had none, and they fell off the inventory sheet. My blow for non-ickiness, as far as I was concerned. (Not exactly hot sellers in West Texas, truth be told.)
2. I met the man at WorldCon, of all places, many years later. Little, skinny, balding guy. No creep vibes off of him at all. (But you should have seen folks see his badge, do a double-take, and *back away* like he was contagious.)
3. Was at a used book sale and came across a bunch of first editions for 0.50 each; sold them on eBay. Oddly enough, the "Donated by the Girl Scouts of Central Texas" stickers inside the front covers did not detract from their value...
That being said, they are badly written crappy porn, and I can't see why Dark Horse is reprinting them except for the weird cult factor. (Or that "Oooh, we're printing naughty books!" chuckle that guys who run comic book companies always seem to get.)
no subject
I mean, after all, the books are legendary in reputation and because they're also hard to find. A smallish company could make a killing for a relatively small investment. At this point, I suspect the Gor series isn't exactly a high-priced investment. The 2000 article mentioned that the erotica publisher who temporarily managed to get the series to market invested only a few hundred thou and got a new book out of the deal.
So, it could be the naughty factor, or the cult factor, that's part of Dark Horse's decision-making process.
As for your story about John Norman...wow. I'm not even sure how to react to that story. Hell, for all we know, Norman probably writes 'em for kicks or to see how far he can push it. On the one hand, I feel kinda sorry for him.
no subject
What's weird is that Dark Horse doesn't seem to be taking advantage of Gor's reputation; they seem to be ignoring it as hard as they can. (I do wonder what the actual cover of the Gor omnibus is going to look like when it comes out-- it can't possibly just be that orange gradient, can it?)
But right now, at least in the initial stages, Dark Horse seems to be promoting/describing the Gor comics as just straight fantasy action/adventure, like Hellboy or Conan or Buffy. Just about the only hint that it might be something more than that is one word in the promo text (http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/profile.php?sku=14-558), where they say that Gor is a land of "passion" (and sorcery.) *eyeroll*
But imagine, seriously, if you'd never heard of Gor; it says right on Dark Horse's site that this is an adventure enjoyed by "...all age groups and demographics." Er. I swear, I'm sensing a repeat of the "Nymphet" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodomo_no_Jikan) controversy, where one of the excuses given for dropping the manga (after much outcry) was "well, suddenly we realized some of the bits in later volumes were inappropriate." Like the publishers hadn't actually read the entire manga before deciding to purchase the rights to it! Shyeah.
Anyway. It just adds a whole new layer of *yuck*. If you're going to publish kinky slave-rape fetish material, then at least have the decency to admit that's actually what you're doing, and label it accordingly. Don't be all "what's everyone so upset about? It's just a classic pulp adaptation like everything else we do?" That's so cheap.
no subject
no subject
You can see the scanlations for the manga here. I had planned to mirror them on my gj and ij behind a semi-private friends cut ...
no subject
Why are you glad it will exist in fansub form? I don't understand the appeal of the series, I guess. Is it a really great story that's *so good* you can ignore the icky bits that sexualize an eight-year-old's crush on her teacher, or is that the whole point, that it's about "a mischievous young girl who tries to sexually entrap her teacher?" (quote via Jason DeAngelis)
I have the same problem with Nymphet, I guess, as I do with Gor; Gor is about how all women really-truly want to be raped (even if they don't even know it, or claim otherwise, etc.) and it's simply a man's duty to get on with it; Nymphet seems to be about how a little girl really-truly is being a purposeful cocktease-- saying things, doing things, rubbing up against her teacher, because she really, really wants it, and therefore nothing *he* does in response is his fault.
I'm sure there are men who read the Gor books and think to themselves "Yes, that's right! He's telling it how it is! All women really want to be raped!" And I'm sure there are also men who would read Nymphet and think "It's true! Those little cockteases really *are* doing it on purpose! They really do want me to fuck them!"
But apart from letting these ideas *support* what some pathetic bastard already believes-- I'm sure there are inexperienced teenagers also reading the manga and letting it *form* their beliefs. I don't see why you'd have to be a politician or a bible-thumper to be grossed out by that.
no subject
I'd like to point out that the original author of the manga is a woman who understands that this sort of silly comedy is meant to be amusing fiction. She sees the crush the kid has on the teacher as a rather innocent event, in great contrast to people who want to overread the text here in the west.
As Jason DeAngelis said quite well,
Most people have not yet read Nymphet, since we haven't even published it yet, so I would like to clarify an important point: Nymphet is a story about a mischievous young girl who tries to sexually entrap her teacher. The important context here is that the girl's advances on her teacher are never reciprocated by him; her teacher is horrified by her actions, and his romantic interest is in fact another adult teacher. The comedy arises out of this young girl saying and doing improper things (much like Crayon Shin-chan, which is currently being aired on Cartoon Network) and seeing her teacher squirm with discomfort and shock while he struggles to keep his composure, at the same time trying not to make a fool of himself in front of the woman he loves.
Gor and KnoJ/Nymphet are only similar in that both are fiction; they have nothing else in common.
no subject
Yes, I'm aware that the manga's author is a woman. That's not the point. And I'm aware that the teacher "doesn't respond." That's not the point either.
The point is that the story's main character is an eight-year-old cocktease who is *actively trying to get an adult to have sex with her.*
This is problematic to me.
Think of it this way. What if this were a comic published by some conservative Christian group, and the main character is a child who is constantly trying to provoke their parent into beating them with a belt. The parent is soooo embarrassed by the thought of beating the child, because what would the other parents think? But the whole point of the story is about how this kid really, really, really *wants* to be physically abused. Oh, and sometimes, even though the parent doesn't *want* to, their hand "accidentally" slips and they smack their kid. Hah, physical abuse is so full of "lulz." What a great comic. Surely no one could ever pick up any harmful ideas from it.
Would you argue "But the parent doesn't ever actually beat the child!?"
Or would you be able to see that some people might take the obvious lesson from the story: "Children need/want to be beaten, and when they act in a certain way, they are doing it on purpose because they *want* to be beaten." Even if it never happens in the story, *that's the message*.
The problem is that if an adult male looks at an eight-year-old-- and let's say she falls over and flashes her panties, the way the main character of Nymphet/KnoJ tends to do. And that adult thinks to himself, "She's doing that on purpose, to get me hot," that's creepy enough *as it is*, to imagine that an eight-year-old could actually trying to seduce an adult male in full understanding of what that means. When we're talking about a fictional character-- it doesn't matter whether or not he then "resists" her "advances." It's bizarre enough to have established, in the fictional universe, that an eight-year-old is actually capable of making advances.
I can't imagine not finding Nymphet/KnoJ creepy on those grounds. To me, reading a series where a child really *wants* to be molested is no different from reading a series where women really *want* to be raped, or black people really *want* to be enslaved, or where people over 65 really *want* to be euthanized for the good of everyone, and oh, it's certainly not *my* fault for doing it, they *wanted* it! They were totally asking for it!
"But he never actually molests her" would be a good defense in real life, if we were talking about a real life teacher dealing with a real life sexy child who was trying to get in his pants. But the difference is that in real life, there are no cute, happy, sexy little eight-year-olds running around actively trying to entrap adult males into having sex with them. (And if there are, the right response is not "gosh, how embarrassing! I'll stand here and blush a lot" but "Child psychologist, ASAP, and can we find out something about this kid's home life, because something isn't right here."
But Nymphet/KnoJ is a story that purposely establishes its main character as a sexy little eight-year-old cocktease, and gosh there's just *nothing* that the teacher can *do* about it except stand there and *take* it, over and over and over again. There's more than a little hint of "oh, no, Bre'r Bear, please don't throw me in the briar patch! I'd just *hate* it if you threw me in the briar patch. No, seriously, no! Oh, I'm really hating this! So much!! Let's do it again in the next issue."
Gag me.
no subject
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/youthrights/sex/instigation.php
no subject
I read that before I posted, actually. I didn't find it convincing. Yes, people under eighteen have sexual desires and urges. (Gasp, shock!)
That doesn't mean I think it's awesome to write a cute, lulz-worthy manga about a sexy little panty-flashing eight-year-old who really, really wants to be molested.
I have a feeling the people who are comparing this manga to "Lolita" have actually never read "Lolita." The whole damn point of "Lolita" is that HH is deluded; he looks at Lolita and sees a temptress, actively trying to seduce him, but she's *not actually*-- that's just what he tells himself so that he can feel morally justified in having sex with her. "Lolita" treats the subject of underage sexuality seriously. Not for "lulz."
no subject
Read My Lips
The case cited in the article you posted mentioned a FIFTEEN YEAR old girl. Do girls that age have sexual fantasies? Oh heck yeah -- anyone who's had a male substitute teacher can just watch the hormones go kerblooie. Do EIGHT YEAR-OLDS have sexual fantasies? NO. No percolating hormones, no development of certain areas...nothing. If they have nothing by which to collect data for their fantasies, the fantasy doesn't happen -- imaginations simply does not occur in a vacuum. Curious I'll give you, but curious is a far cry from sexual aggression.
The idea that someone that young can be a sexual aggressor is straight out of a MANBLA minutes meaning.
Re: Read My Lips
Re: Read My Lips
However this does not mean that children are completely oblivious to sexuality. Most won't know in any firm sense what sex is about, but kids, especially young ones are quite aware of their bodies, and not terribly shamed to express their curiosity over those funky parts of anatomy or to ask about the gender roles they see expressed in day to day interactions between people.
Sexuality is a very basic biological thing, and is present before puberty. Just not to the extent of a 8 year old trying to screw her teacher. Unless, someone close to her is modeling such behavior for her to copy- an older sibling or parent who is a shameless flirt. Without that, an 8 year old acting that way is highly implausible.
no subject
Don’t allow your Japanophilia to misplace common sense here.
no subject
And I've worked for a publisher who would have reprinted them for the cool factor--except that as he said, "Damnit, I can't get past the crappy writing!"
no subject
Why aren't there more publishers like that? *g*
"Donated by the Girl Scouts of Central Texas"
~M~