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*snicker*
ETA: WHEEEEE! I've been suspended from TWoP completely. I can't even view the message boards!
It appears that I've been turned into the TWoP Traffic Court for being unduly snotty in the BtVS fanfic thread.
Ummmm, so snotty is bad now? Guess it's been awhile since I posted something snotty on TwOP, hunh?
I went over to pimp the Dark Xander Fic-A-Thon for people who might be interested and ended up poking my nose in an exchange.
There's a certain member there who makes a habit of recommending Spike-centric fics (perfectly and totally okay) that tend to bash male non-Spike characters (which kind of isn't). A few people have called her on recc'ing bash fics (including me) in the past, but she keeps going in that direction.
I think it's a case of it getting on my last nerve.
I admit this: Spike isn't my favorite character in the Buffy-verse. That said, he's not the one I dislike the most. He once held the number two spot (number one has always been reserved for Dawn since the first third of S6...please don't shoot me), but he's moved down the dislike ladder since then.
However, I get why Spike's the number one fave for people. I understand it. It all comes down to what character appeals to/speaks to you.
I read Spike-centric fanfic. I enjoy some of it. But I enjoy Spike-centric fanfic that doesn't turn Spike into St. Cheekbones of the Abs and acknowledges that Spike has Issues, like every other flipping character on Angel and Buffy. I enjoy Spike-centric fanfic that doesn't take a crudgel to the other characters, or plays down the legitimate feelings of and between other characters just so he can look better by comparison.
Look, I'm not sure how many times BtVS felt they had to harp on this, but Spike without a soul is substansively different that Spike with a soul. The failure was in the writing in that they kept telling us that Spike was different, but failed to actually show it. What's more, they knew they were failing to show it because otherwise Buffy wouldn't have been caterwauling about Spike having a soul every five minutes.
However, in stating the fact that Spike with soul is a different person than Spike without a soul, they most certainly weren't breaking canon on that front. They were being amazingly consistent, which is nothing short of a miracle in S7.
What's good for the Angel, is good for the Spike says I.
Also, upon watching some episodes from Angel and Buffy, I've also come to the solid conclusion that comparing Angel to Spike isn't entirely fair as far as resouling and how they acted thereafter goes. Nor do I think it says that Angel was "better" than Spike or that Spike was "better" than Angel.
For a start, before Angelus got slammed with a soul, no one knew it was possible to shove a soul into a vampire. So even if Angelus was inclined to go get one (and he wasn't), Angelus wouldn't even know where to go. The tripwire was incredibly vague as well. "Happiness" that was strong enough to allow Angel to forget that he was a vampire loses Angel the soul, but no one seemed to know what would give him that level of happiness.
Furthermore, once Angel becomes Angel, he had zero by way of support network. All he had really was Darla, Dru, and Spike, not exactly the most sympathetic creatures to his plight. He also stuck with what he knew, but picked his victims more carefully (criminals and scum, as Darla points out). In short, Angel had no one to rely on at all.
By the time Spike comes around, it's general knowledge that getting a soul is possible. (I'm leaving aside the chip out vs. get a soul argument in this debate...I say chip out and stand by it; other people argue on the other side). Not only that, Spike had a support network once he got it. Buffy — at least partially driven by her Angel issues — backed and supported Spike. The Scoobs, to varying degrees, fell in line for the most part.
But falling back into signature Spike-yness? Maybe understandable given my own re-watch of some Angel episodes. There needed, I think, to be more "clues" that Spike was substansively different with soul than without. The "not eating people" factor doesn't hold as much power here, mostly because we had spent the three years previous with Spike on a mostly human-free diet.
I suppose nothing short of substantial interactions with Scoobs not named Buffy or showing Spike more in isolation from Buffy after the initial episodes would have managed that trick. I think that's where the missed opportunity really was.
Having said all that, Spike without the soul (just like Angelus before him) was an utter bastard. Whitewashing him and making the Scoobs look bad by comparison in fanfic...that just rubs the wrong way.
How hard is this: If you don't like the character, do your readers a favor and metaphorically send them out of town on a bus. Please. While there's an audience for character-bashing fics, there's a bigger audience that hates them.
ETA: Watching the big NB and CC reunion movie. Heh. Is it me, or are none of the characters at all likeable. The only person I feel bad for thus far is CC's character, because she's about to be shit on by the "poor picked on good guy we're supposed to be sympathizing with."
Bleh.
It appears that I've been turned into the TWoP Traffic Court for being unduly snotty in the BtVS fanfic thread.
Ummmm, so snotty is bad now? Guess it's been awhile since I posted something snotty on TwOP, hunh?
I went over to pimp the Dark Xander Fic-A-Thon for people who might be interested and ended up poking my nose in an exchange.
There's a certain member there who makes a habit of recommending Spike-centric fics (perfectly and totally okay) that tend to bash male non-Spike characters (which kind of isn't). A few people have called her on recc'ing bash fics (including me) in the past, but she keeps going in that direction.
I think it's a case of it getting on my last nerve.
I admit this: Spike isn't my favorite character in the Buffy-verse. That said, he's not the one I dislike the most. He once held the number two spot (number one has always been reserved for Dawn since the first third of S6...please don't shoot me), but he's moved down the dislike ladder since then.
However, I get why Spike's the number one fave for people. I understand it. It all comes down to what character appeals to/speaks to you.
I read Spike-centric fanfic. I enjoy some of it. But I enjoy Spike-centric fanfic that doesn't turn Spike into St. Cheekbones of the Abs and acknowledges that Spike has Issues, like every other flipping character on Angel and Buffy. I enjoy Spike-centric fanfic that doesn't take a crudgel to the other characters, or plays down the legitimate feelings of and between other characters just so he can look better by comparison.
Look, I'm not sure how many times BtVS felt they had to harp on this, but Spike without a soul is substansively different that Spike with a soul. The failure was in the writing in that they kept telling us that Spike was different, but failed to actually show it. What's more, they knew they were failing to show it because otherwise Buffy wouldn't have been caterwauling about Spike having a soul every five minutes.
However, in stating the fact that Spike with soul is a different person than Spike without a soul, they most certainly weren't breaking canon on that front. They were being amazingly consistent, which is nothing short of a miracle in S7.
What's good for the Angel, is good for the Spike says I.
Also, upon watching some episodes from Angel and Buffy, I've also come to the solid conclusion that comparing Angel to Spike isn't entirely fair as far as resouling and how they acted thereafter goes. Nor do I think it says that Angel was "better" than Spike or that Spike was "better" than Angel.
For a start, before Angelus got slammed with a soul, no one knew it was possible to shove a soul into a vampire. So even if Angelus was inclined to go get one (and he wasn't), Angelus wouldn't even know where to go. The tripwire was incredibly vague as well. "Happiness" that was strong enough to allow Angel to forget that he was a vampire loses Angel the soul, but no one seemed to know what would give him that level of happiness.
Furthermore, once Angel becomes Angel, he had zero by way of support network. All he had really was Darla, Dru, and Spike, not exactly the most sympathetic creatures to his plight. He also stuck with what he knew, but picked his victims more carefully (criminals and scum, as Darla points out). In short, Angel had no one to rely on at all.
By the time Spike comes around, it's general knowledge that getting a soul is possible. (I'm leaving aside the chip out vs. get a soul argument in this debate...I say chip out and stand by it; other people argue on the other side). Not only that, Spike had a support network once he got it. Buffy — at least partially driven by her Angel issues — backed and supported Spike. The Scoobs, to varying degrees, fell in line for the most part.
But falling back into signature Spike-yness? Maybe understandable given my own re-watch of some Angel episodes. There needed, I think, to be more "clues" that Spike was substansively different with soul than without. The "not eating people" factor doesn't hold as much power here, mostly because we had spent the three years previous with Spike on a mostly human-free diet.
I suppose nothing short of substantial interactions with Scoobs not named Buffy or showing Spike more in isolation from Buffy after the initial episodes would have managed that trick. I think that's where the missed opportunity really was.
Having said all that, Spike without the soul (just like Angelus before him) was an utter bastard. Whitewashing him and making the Scoobs look bad by comparison in fanfic...that just rubs the wrong way.
How hard is this: If you don't like the character, do your readers a favor and metaphorically send them out of town on a bus. Please. While there's an audience for character-bashing fics, there's a bigger audience that hates them.
ETA: Watching the big NB and CC reunion movie. Heh. Is it me, or are none of the characters at all likeable. The only person I feel bad for thus far is CC's character, because she's about to be shit on by the "poor picked on good guy we're supposed to be sympathizing with."
Bleh.
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Plus, I think I was in the middle of Facing the Heart in Darkness.
Honestly though, I have read fics that feature Dawn and Spike seperately and together (altough none so far in a 'ship).
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Using my only Buffy icon
We are told initally that vampires are demons that took over someone's body, really, and who that person was is essentially gone. The demon remembers the human past, but not the emotions or the love. Remember when Xander's friend was turned in the first episode? He said to Xander that he was like a shadow to him now.
So Angel with a soul is who he was as a human; sort of tortured and maybe a bit selfish, but a good guy. Spike, on the other hand, started doing 'good', albeit for selfish reasons, way before he got his soul.
As much as I love Spike, and really enjoyed Chip Spike, I do think this is a bit of an inconsistancy. I think they started making Spike more human way before they should've. It made Angel/Angelus make no sense.
The other thing that totally bugs me about Angel is this. Why is sex the trigger? I mean, sex is nice and all, but I don't see how it equals total happiness. Pleasure, yeah, happiness? Not so much.
There was this scene in Angel, after Connor was born, and he and Cordelia were lying in bed with the baby between them, all three sleeping, and for a moment, all was peaceful. To me, that's a moment of perfect happiness. Just being in love with Buffy, or knowing she loved him should've been perfect happiness. The whole sex thing really, really annoyed me.
Which, I realise, is completely off the subject now, so I'll shut up.
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Why? Becuase he got what he most wanted - he thought he was redeemed. Here is this girl, who in Angel's eyes is perfect and she loves him and trust him completely. Trusts him so much that she gives him herself. And in that instant, he forgets his sins, he thinks he's a man because he's a man in her eyes.
Of course, the horrible irony is, instead of being redeemed, he condems himself back to hell (literally, eventually.)
As far as vampires, again imo, they totally retain their human personality minus compassion and morals, with a demon tilting toward active violence. I've done a few posts on the susbject, if you're interested, here they are:
Angel vs Angelus
Angel, Spike, Vampirism and Redemption
Spike, Fanfic and Me
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As for bashy fic, I think you already know my stance.
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Anyway, temporarily suspended I am. For the crime of snottiness. *rolls eyes* Weeeeird.
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Slap on the wrist? I totally got suspended until September 7. I can't log in or out. It's pretty funny, in a way. I've received no email from the mods telling me that I was suspended. I found out when I went back to check the boards. I figured it was my sarcastic post and went to Forum Traffic Court. Lo and behold, there was the complaint. It's since been altered by Sars to say that it's been "handled."
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And yeah, I'm watching, and this is a nightmarish clan. April, I find, is sympathetic, but she's set up that way by the writers, is the only real reason.
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As for the movie, I can honestly say that the writing suckethed the big one. Talk about whiplash characterization. The acting was much better than the material. I mean, NB played his hateful smarmy character pretty well. CC sparkled on screen. And CG is always such a woobie.
Still hated all the characters when the credits rolled, though. Were we supposed to be charmed that they all buried the hatchet by the end? I was not charmed. No matter how you sliced it, Dil still left his fiance in the woods with a bear and what's more, he knew she'd be messing with the bear. And the girl he actually got? Not much better. In her shoes, I would have reacted like the babysitter character in the shower scene. Bah.
I got your email and I just am dropping a line to say I agree (about exposition). I'm planning to move some of that to a different scene (I hope) and rearrange a few others. As for the Holy Shit element...*cringe*...it got just a little bit worse.
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I never saw any change from Chipped Spike to Souled Spike. That was just another example of the really poor storytelling in the final two seasons.
I'm still ambivalent towards the NB/CC movie. It sounds horrid, but it would be fun to see those two interact again.
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Watching the big NB and CC reunion movie. Heh. Is it me, or are none of the characters at all likeable.
Not just you. Everyone was horrible. Which, to be fair, I think they were supposed to be. Even the "poor picked-on good guy" was an ass.
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That's one of a few fannish arguments that just totally drives me up the wall. Do these people even think about what they're saying? Good lord.
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(Anonymous) 2006-09-05 04:19 am (UTC)(link)Liam as a human seemed to have many many issues. My own personal take on the situation was that he was an artist, that didn't live in a family/society that encouraged that side of him. As a result he rebelled and did just about everything that could disappoint his father.
Now after he's been turned and become Angelus, he's still got that rage and his first action is to wipe out everyone he may have had contact with. But then later on we still see evidence of that artistic side of him, but now it's very twisted. Think about the vampires he sired (least two of the ones we know about), Penn and Drusilla; think about how he treated Holtz and others. He attempted to shape Penn into a carbon copy of himself, and then he tortured Drusilla in every way he could think of to ensure that she was completely broken before he finally turned her - in my opinion, this was his new way of creating something, to his twisted vampire pysche, this was his art. With Holtz, he was always playing games, toying with the fabled demon-hunter - who knows what he might have originally had planned before he got a soul/Holtz was recruited by Sahjhan (unsure of precise timeline as to which happened first); that same behaviour was shown when he goes up against Buffy in BTVS season 2 or his own gang in seasons of AtS - he refuses to simply kill them and move on, playing games/torturing them, basically seeing what he can turn them into (possibly without having to actually turn them - we'll never know, the plans/stories never got to go that far before his soul-retention issue became resolved), this is all he now 'lives' for.
Then after he gets ensouled for the first time, he tries to hide out amongst the only family he's known for centuries but they don't accept him. From then on it seems that he hides that artistic side to him, as if ashamed of what it had created/what he had become when he no longer had a conscience to hold him in check. He continues to hide from humanity as best he can, realising that he has no place in it nor in the demon world - to me it seemed that he took a look at what he was both as human and as a demon and couldn't find aything he liked about either incarnation - and he was scared to actually become anything in this new ensouled vamp version of himself. But on the one time (that we know about) he had to turn a human while he had a soul, we see that once again he's created something new.
tbc...
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In relation to that, it made me wonder if Darla/Angelus would be proud if they knew how much their actions of killing Jesse and hurting Buffy influenced Xander's live while he was not even their target.
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If intelligent discourse is no longer allowed what's the point?
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(Anonymous) 2006-09-05 05:02 am (UTC)(link)William as a human was the exact opposite of Spike as a vampire. Spike was everything William wanted to be (if you take the Liam-as-artist theory, then Angelus could technically be viewed as everything Liam wanted to be - in that his whole life and existance becomes about the art, and nothing and no-one will ever tell him how to live anymore - not even the Master). William was allowed to attempt to create his poetry, even though it was ridiculed by all that heard it. Spike simply lives for fun and entertainment; but maybe it shows something that as far as we see Spike never really Sires anyone (I'm sure that there's a fundamental difference between creating a Childe and creating the standard run of the mill minions that were seen each week).
The problem with addressing Souled-Spike vs non-Souled Spike is that we have the intermediate step, Chipped-Spike. Now I liked Chipped-Spike (that said, I'm by no means a Spike-fan, I've simply given him the level of thought I've given to all the characters), he was entertaining in all the right ways while still being true to his vampire self. He knew he couldn't survive on his own in that form, and he also knew that the Scoobs might be willing to take on a vampire that wasn't killing humans, and in a brilliant move of manipulation did *just* enough to keep them from killing him for a couple of years.
The problem is that once Spike gets a soul (I'm not going to get sidetracked with an argument about the reason why Spike got it - at least not in this post), there isn't much noticeable change in his behaviour from his time as Chipped-Spike. Guess what, Angel's first actions weren't that different from what he'd been doing before either... (and in a strange reversal of this, Darla needs to be looked at too - haven't got time and space to go into it here, but to me on her return as human, she seemed to be stuck in the mindset of a vampire - maybe the fact that she was terminally ill, and the fact that in her mind there was no human life to attempt to adopt/rejoin/revisit).
To me, Spike wasn't the finished version when the show(s) ended. And with there only being two years from when he got the soul to the show's cancellation, it would have been unrealistic for him to achieve it. However it should have been obvious that he was moving towards something, or at least simply moving. And that's where the show failed in regards to me with the souled-Spike storyline; I liked it when he turned up crazy, I liked that getting a soul was going to cause him serious issues... at the start of season 7, I believed we were going to see what getting a soul could have been like for Angel at the very beginning. I liked that as a concept, and in my mind it could have worked; whereas I can understand/explain what ME did (see above for my own theories on the Spike thing), I'd like it even more if I believed that's what they were *intending* to do (Souled-Spike as an unfinished project, slowly working his way into something that doesn't resemble either William or Spike or chipped-Spike), and as a result I end up hating what they did to the character Spike. The end of crazy Spike (oh look it was just the first playnig with him), was a giant failure to me. From that point on they simply built some ideal version of Spike that some of the writers liked (keeping his snarkiness, some version of his relationship with Buffy, etc), and tried to force him into some twisted version of a perfect male in which all other males have such obvious faults (on the BTVS show at least, on AtS it was better but they couldn't go down that route and keep any viewers from that show) - to me, that's the sort of choice that belongs in bad fanfic.
tbc...
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(Anonymous) 2006-09-05 05:02 am (UTC)(link)So there, in closing, (1) ME sold out when it came to Spike/James Marsters. (2) Don't bash characters you don't like, try to find something else to do with them even if it's just ignore them.
Mike C (not a Spike fan)
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I've heard a compelling argument that Spike didn't really start growing into his soul until the incident with Dana in Damage. That little bit at the end with Angel was a very telling moment.
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I guess the technology is better than I thought.
Anyway, just stay here with us sane folk.
*cue maniacal laugh*
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Congratulations! I've earned their ire a time or two for my 'snotty' comments. It's like a paddling that doesn't really hurt and you walk away laughing at the teacher.
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Boy are you right about the telling not showing in s7. Of course, they were way too busy taking James' shirt off to actually add any depth to his character. I got seriously tired of the "let's torture Spike some more" scenes instead of interactions with the other characters. Honestly, think about what he and Willow had to say to each other. Also, somewhere between Beneath You and Sleeper Xander did a practical 180 in his opinion on Spike. What happened? Did they talk? Bond? Did Spike do something that made Xander view him differently? I hated not having scenes like that.
There are arguments for Spike or Angel being better, but I think there are much more interesting ones for them being different. MAny of them are the reasons you already listed. I think still others can be found in their human religious backgrounds and family situations.
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I didn't much like Nick's movie either. I didn't even watch the second hour because they were all so annoying. Oh well.
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Had the same problem on theWB.com, it just displayed a white page (As no message was sent, it toke me weeks to realise it was not a problem with their server)
It can usually be accessed again with a combination of a different IP (phonemodem or proxy) and new sceenname
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I'm trying to finish the Spike interview and most of my material is from there .. lol
Aw now I feel so bad regarding the NB/CC movie, I was looking forwards to it.
snottiness?
Okay, Miss Manners is clearly out of control!
Make me glad I don't frequent TWOP,
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What's good for the Angel, is good for the Spike says I.
Word! S7 and continuity :shakes head: do not get along. Can you imagine what it was like being an old casual viewer who hadn’t seen the show since S3 to run into these people on mid S6-S7? I was like wtf happened here?!?!
I will note, however, that Spike’s character traits were far more consistent with/without soul than Angel/Angelus. The basic premise of a soul is the ability to make moral choices, and as much as I wanted to see it, I guess my basic lazyblahness referring Spike always made me see him as not quite that different on the outside, it was, me thinks, an inner change more than anything. Of course being able to make moral choices doesn’t mean one’s gonna do what’s right, so he does get some credit for [whatever his reasons may have been, read: (IMO) get in Buffy’s pants] doing the “right thing”. So maybe, with all of the S7 craziness, the writers were aware of this but couldn’t really develop it more, hence the “But he has a soul!” mantra. Am I making sense? Probably not, but I’m on a roll so I’m gonna keep going…
Not only that, Spike had a support network once he got it. Buffy — at least partially driven by her Angel issues— backed and supported Spike. The Scoobs, to varying degrees, fell in line for the most part.
For some weird ass reason, this: “driven by her Angel Issues”, made me laugh my ass off for close to five minutes. I’m sooo not kidding here, I almost fell of my chair. I think that the fact that Spike wanted a soul does make them different in the sense that Spike knew what he was getting into and [initial craziness aside] he had at least a vague idea of what was expecting him. I believe he counted on the Angel Issues [which I am totally capitalizing from now on] to help his cause with Buffy, and if he didn’t, well, he ain’t that smart.
Having said all that, Spike without the soul (just like Angelus before him) was an utter bastard.
Thanks for making that clear, I was sort of confused about the subject! [;)]
Whitewashing him and making the Scoobs look bad by comparison in fanfic...that just rubs the wrong way.
I tend to avoid Spike fics. I am probably missing on some great stuff [or so I’m told] but seriously, I don’t like the character that much and for some reason, other characters tend to get smashed a lot, so what’s the point anyway? This is what bashing does… it drives away people. I think it’s all about the alpha and how some people wanna turn their favorite characters into the alpha, regardless of who they actually are on the show and how OOC they can become.
I have to say though, that I dislike glorification of characters just as much as bashing. There’s a reason for me to have written my “Just Keep Waiting” fic, so I could get all of the “Faith is the shit, she rockz” feelings outta my system. Not sure I managed to do it completely, I kept enough so that she’s still the shit, only, with flaws too. Whatever. So, yeah, my point. These two things are kinda complementary, cause you know, glorification of the Spike does lead [not always, but a lot of times] to bashing of other characters [read: mostly Xander].
Faith.
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I understand the liking of him as a character too, but I'm still clueless why so many like his personality.
But I'm beginning to get a suspicion on why the people liking him (post-S3) so often clash with other fans/shippers;
From S4/5 Spike got both the cool-strong guy-position Angel used to have as well as the underdog-possition of Xander, without the related negative issues as responsiblilety and uncertainty (no soul). So new viewers turning in after that season usually chose for Spike to relate too, whereas most would have split over Xander and Angel (or liked both) if they had started in S1.
(Are there any Xander-fans who first tuned in during mid-S4 or later?)
[i]I enjoy Spike-centric fanfic that doesn't take a crudgel to the other characters, or plays down the legitimate feelings of and between other characters just so he can look better by comparison. [/i]
LOL, I consider playing people to his own advantage part of Spikes skills/personality. But I agree, it should stick to the character, not to thew story.
And I've no problem with the existense of Bash=fics, as long as they are properly labeled, and only used for that particular goal, not to make others look better. (not sure how a character looks smart or Good if his rival is an Evil fool, but ok. :-)
Has anyone ever written a "Rules in the Art of Bashing" yet?
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I think I just nodded my head until it fell onto my keyboard reading this.
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As you can see, I actually don't do a lot by way of locked posts. I've done more than usual recently, but only because I'm working on a difficult piece of fanfic.