liz_marcs | Who do you write for?

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Who do you write for?

Wheeeee! I actually have time to turn on my computer!

Mostly it's cleaning up the next part of Facing the Heart in Darkness, but these questions from

tkp got my brain spinning up with this post on the imagined audience. I think they're a good set of questions that most writers (fanfic and original fiction) should probably ask themselves occassionally.

What fics have you written with imaginary audiences in mind? Why?

As strange as this sounds, in Buffy fanfic I tend to look at Buffy fandom as a whole as my imaginary audience. Which may sound strange coming from someone who writes: 1) gen and 2) mostly Xander-centric fanfic. It also sounds like I have a hell of an ego, too.

I suppose it's because I actually do have a publishing background and have had experience in helping to launch one trade publication, two trade newsletters, and two email newsletters. I've also sat in on discussions where the company was either launching a news supplement or a new section in the newspaper. The first question always asked is: "Who is our potential audience?" The second question, "How well defined is that audience?" The third question, "How much of that audience will spend money (or time) reading this?"

So from day one, I asked myself those questions. My potential audience? Everyone in Buffy fandom who reads fanfic. How well defined is that audience? Pretty well-defined and a self-selected group at that. How much of that audience is willing to spend time reading me? A small percentage, to be sure, but enough to at least get good feedback and help improve my writing.

So, at the top of the heap, let's say, "Imaginary audience: Buffy fans who read fanfic, no restrictions."

From there, I tend to break my imaginary audience into groups. "People who like Xander as a character, but don't think he's perfect" is primary subgroup I write for. That eliminates an awful lot of my potential audience, but leaves a bigger one than you might suppose.

"People who will read fic even though the shipping element isn't that strong" is the second subgroup I write for. Oddly enough, this actually expands my potential audience since people who read and/or write het/gen/slash are at least willing to sample the goods..and they're willing to sample it more than once before deciding whether to drop me or stick with me. It more than makes up for the loss on the Xander front.

Why? I can't say for sure if it's true or not, but I think it's because if a story just happens to have a shipping element, it's not shoved down a reader's throat. There's plenty of other elements (I hope) that they'd like, even if they don't like or could care less about the 'ship. In short, I try to make it easy for people who don't like, for example, Faith/Xander to just go with it and move on because it's not the central theme or point of any given story. If a 'ship comes into play at all, it's a characterization element, and less so a story element. It's a pretty important distinction, I think.

This is why I think I'm one of the few people out there who'll look at a het fic or a slash fic and call it gen. For example, I tend to view

othercat,

entrenous88,

mandylancast as more gen writers (even though most of them are better known as a slash writers) because the relationships they have in their stories tend to serve the plot, instead of the other way 'round. I maybe even tend to go to a greater extreme and say that even if a story has "on screen sex" it's possible for it to be gen, if the sex involved serves the plot instead of being the focus of the plot.

This is why, to an extent, I think Character/Character warnings and het/slash labels are, at their heart, pretty misleading. Unless a story is primarily a romance, I personally don't think the labels are all that terrifically important. I've never been in a position where I've been pissed off about a "hidden pairing." Bad grammar, rampant misspelling, character bashing, cheap story-telling, lazy formatting...these things piss me off. 'Ships, regardless of whether it is het or slash? Not so much.

However, my potential audience wants them; my potential audience expects them; it is the norm for my potential audience. So, labels of het/slash or Character/Character it is, even if I think it's not a big deal.

What's a group that's been your imaginary audience?

Well, I still hold that Buffy fans who read fanfic is still my imaginary audience, although they're a very patient group since I do multichaptered fics. So far TeH ev0l plans have paid off. People who give me feedback really do read and/or write a huuuuuuuge selection of fic types, genres, and ships. Hell, not all of them even count Xander as their number-one favorite character. I'll be honest: I'm really very proud of the fact that anyone who wants to can come hang out in my LJ, regardless of who they are (and what they write) on line and in RL.

Who's a person who's been your imaginary audience?

If you're looking at a person as a stand in for the type of audience you are reaching for it all depends on the story...hell, sometimes depends on the story part.

For my Africander fic, Facing the Heart in Darkness, I admit that I've deliberately targeted

speakr2customrs as my potential audience of one since he's actually seen parts of Africa and because Lonely on the Mountain is an impossible story to beat. While I know he hasn't been in Mali, I sure as shit make sure my Africa facts and figures are straight before I post anything because I don't want him to go, "Ummmm, dude? That's just wrong."

Although

othercat doesn't know this, and even though it predates my joining LJ by quite a bit, Whisper was actually targeted at her at my imaginary audience of one. (Yes, I was anonymously fangirling her). She had no fucking clue who I was at the time, but I still targeted her as my potential audience for Whisper.

Contrite Spirits was most definitely targeted at

huzzlewhat as my imaginary audience of one. She had already written Seeing Africa, which is still pretty much the standard Xander-in-Africa "small" story in my mind. While there is no "in text" connection, it would be very fair to say that her characterization of Xander in that story is not that far removed from Xander's characterization in mine.

My DarkXander fic is actually targeted at

sunnyd_lite as my imaginary audience of one, for a lot of reasons. She'll know why when I send her some test chapters to Spike-pick. The primary reason is because I want readers like her who don't like squick for squick's sake, but only if it's used in a meaningful way and has serious, possibly even fatal, consequences.

I could go on and on and on with more examples, but then I'd be here all night.

Is there a particular person or group who is often your imaginary audience, and if so, who are they?

I know this sounds like a cop-out, but see above. It's pretty much the same answer as the first three.

Who's that person who's fb you often or always think about when you write, and against your better judgment and confidence in yourself, feel kinda vindicated when you get?

I'm greedy. No, seriously. I'm lucky to have people who will frequently and often given excellent feedback and concrit and I'm grateful to all of them. I don't feel "vindicated" just because one person in particular pays attention to me. I'm just happy anyone pays attention to me at all.

And I always feel vindicated when someone reads a new part and goes, "Ahhhhhh, so that's where you're going. Now I see what you were doing." Best. Compliment. Ever.

Who's your imagined unaudience? Who have you hoped would never read what you've written? Besides your mom and that skeevy guy you saw once at Wal-Mart who followed you for a full ten minutes and got some of his guano on your shoe, are there sometimes people on lj who you hope might skip on by such and such fic? Ever write something knowing so and so will dislike it, and hope they don't read it and think less of your writing for it?

I have three imagined unaudiences:

People who think Xander is the greatest thing evah! They think I bash Xander all the time and that I'm not a real Xander fan. This may have something to do with the fact that Xander can be wrong, make stupid mistakes, and be an asshole.

People who think Xander is the worst thing evah! They think I defend Xander too much and should be writing something with "better" (read: more popular) characters. The fact I like Xander and write Xander obviously says something about me as a person. (Which...no.)

Hell, I've been anti-recc'd a couple of times over the Xander issue, both pro and con. I have no idea how I've managed that and I'm afraid to ask.

The third audience: People who are looking for character-bashing fics against any character and are pissed when their hated character and/or ship doesn't get tarred and feathered like they want. Go away. You bother me.

Obviously the above answers are predicated on the fact that most of my public stuff is Buffy fanfic. The answers will change for any original fic that finally escapes my hard drive.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

When my brain is less fried, I'll read this post and see more than a bunch of letters, but I had to comment on the awesomeness of your icon, if I haven't before. RD is my original fandom, yo!

'Tis shareable if you want to snurch! Just credit the people who made it. They're listed in the comments. :-)

Great post. Stephen King says the ideal reader is very important when writing a book, seems you agree with him.

Although... The fact I like Xander and write Xander obviously says something about me as a person. (Which...no.)

Of course it does, just like someone liking Spike or Buffy or the Initiative or Faith or any other character / thing / idea says something about them. It doesn't say all that much, but it certainly says something. :)

Ahhh, good point that. I think I was talking more about when someone who dislikes Xander for whatever reason decides that I embody all those qualities beause I do like that particular character.

The issue of a normal guy trying to make it in an abnormal setting is interesting to me, especially since there are many aspects of his personality that are just average, and some even below average. But when that boy shines, he shines so bright.

Really great post.

"People who like Xander as a character, but don't think he's perfect" is primary subgroup I write for.

You know, I never thought of it this way, but I guess I write B/A for people who don't see then as the world's most perfect romance and the love to end all loves. Heh. Thanks for that insight.

Totally off topic, I just heard from the amazin' A and one comment he made was that BU has no campus, just a lot of buildings. The green space appears to be the size of our backyard. What say you, since you're a better judge, he only got the tencent tour.

For the Amazing A:

He's right. The BU quad is postage-stamped sized and there are several postage-stamp sized green spaces scattered throughout the campus. But I went to high school in a New England city with heavy industry, so the lack of green space on campus didn't bother me too much. Besides, he could just hit one of the pedestrian bridges and end up in the green space along the Charles River (think very long park with the Hatchshell...you tend to see it if you've ever seen the BSO performances on the 4th of July since that's where they perform).

So, postage-sized greenspace, not a big deal, since you can pretty much walk five minutes to get to a huuuuuge well-maintained park next to a body of water.

Besides, thanks to the Green Line (and the T at large) you can always go to one of the parks along Boston's Emerald Necklace. Also, I used to walk down to the Boston Garden and Boston Common. Commonwealth Ave. (which you can walk to get there) is very tree-lined and has some lovely brownstones. (The Back Bay in general is very nice.) Also, Bay State Road, which is pretty much owned by BU-owned also is very leafy with a nice view of the Charles.

I guess that's why the lack of green space on campus didn't bother me. I'm used to an urban environment and now you've got to look for the trees. One thing Boston does have is a lot of green space in and around it, it just might require some effort to get there.

As for NE co-op program, when I was entering college it was still only a few years' old. I suspect that it's changed a lot of the years. I'd still recommend asking questions on how it would affect financial aid packages, as well as asking questions about how it affects the academic portion. For example, the co-op program used to mean 5-years of NE education instead of the regular 4-years. Since I was an ambitious kid as it was, I still managed to land paying newspaper jobs at BU (again, the school connection was key there), earn money, keep it all, and maintain my admittedly very generous financial aid package. Hell, I even managed to keep a car in the city...although you have to be pretty tricky to get free parking like I used to.

For you:

I never understood the thought process behind writing a fic to make your favored character/couple more perfect. Dynamics between characters are as much about what's good as what's not so good. I can certainly understand the appeal of B/A, when all the interesting issues that make it messy and sometimes impossible for the characters to endure is actually used to good effect. I don't understand is the B/A happily eva after schmoopfest mindset that took over for awhile. I think a lot of those writers have actually moved on, and there are some really good fics starting to emerge.

And I'm with you, I think B/A stories get the short end of the stick recognition-wise.

NE is five years with the co-op. But you only pay tuition for four. As far as it affecting the aid, I'm not sure I'm going to get aid from anyplace. I know for a fact that when I send in my form to the government and they compute how much I can afford, they're going to say all of it.

And on the face of it, I do make a lot but I also live in one of the most expensive parts of the country and will be paying for college for eight straight years. I don't know anybody who can afford 320,000 out of pocket. So, in my case, the co-op might be the cheaper alternative (unless Aaron goes to a much cheaper school).

B/A is sort of an odd ship to write, at least the way I write them (realistically). The majority of my fans are not B/A fans persay.

I know you asked Liz about BU, but I figured I throw in my 2 cents. Feel free to ignore it.

I went to BU. I really didn't want to go there mainly because of the whole lack of campus thing. I had actually sent my deposit to another school with a beautiful campus. I then found out that I was getting a full scholarship to BU, which I actually considered turning down because I wanted a school with a campus so much.

I really didn't miss having a campus. If I needed to sit on the grass, there were plenty of beautiful parks in the area. The lack of campus ended up being one of the best parts of BU for me. I was rarely bored during my 4 years of college. You're in the city where everything you need to have fun and keep busy is in walking distance or a train ride away. There are tons of clubs, theaters, stores, restaurants, and numerous free or low cost events that cater to college students. The city is your campus.

Sorry this is kind of off topic (well not kinda, it really is). You mentioned in your first answer that 'cheap story-telling' puts you off a fic. What is your definition of 'cheap story-telling'?

I'm having a tiz about this at the moment and would be really pleased at any input you could offer.

Also I'd like to say that I am a huge Xander fan and that is one of the reasons why I love your fics, because you treat him as a real person and as he was on the show. He's not perfect, he's just an ordinary person, coping with an extraordinary life, as best he can.

Hmmm, cheap storytelling is when X leads to Y, but the characters haven't "earned" the right to reach Y. It's also when you get to Y, and you don't say how this actually affects the characters, even if the characters earned the Y.

For example: In Contrite Spirits, Xander finds out that Anya granted Faith's mother a wish. If I wrote the story like this:

Xander and Faith go to this cathedral. While there, they walk around to check out the scene. The come across an altar to St. Anyanka. Faith tells him about her mother and how she made a wish to Anya. Xander thinks it's ironic. The end.

That's lazy writing in a nutshell. An extreme case, but lazy writing. First off...

Why did they go to the cathedral in the first place? (To pick up a Slayer).

Why did they walk around? (They arrived early and Faith wanted to.)

What did they see? (A tour group, the grounds, a priest-in-the-box, the gift shop, the altars around the cathedral, the Statue of St. Anne)

What did they do? (They had a conversation about religion, Faith got her cross and some holy water blessed, they bought the jugs for the holy water in the gift shop, they brought their purchases to the car, Xander told a story, they went back into the cathedral too look around, they find the altar to St. Anyanka)

What's their relationship? (they work together, they have a comfortable working relationship, they're not friends and certainly not lovers, Faith seems to be trying to draw Xander out, Xander seems intent of isolating himself)

Why does Faith tell him about her mother? (Xander "earned" the right to hear it when he told her about Eshu and Legba, Faith wanted to know if the story might have a basis in truth)

How does Faith react to Xander's story? (she laughs, she's happy he told her)

How does Xander react to Faith's story? (he expects her to blame him, is surprised when she doesn't, he finally understands just how much damage Anyanka really did as a vengeance demon, he feels guilt and shame, he decides to do something to make up for it)

How does the story end? (they find their Slayer, she's unhappy they found her)

Every step of the way, the story is a give-and-take. I'm showing how the characters get from Point A to Point B to Point C all the way up to the conclusion.

For example, you the reader know exactly what's going on at all times, even though the point of view character (Xander) doesn't.

Also, the physical reality of the story is there — but only the important details that say something about the characters or are germaine to the plot are highlighted for your attention.

The characters have an equal conversation where no one gets to be the straw man. Faith acts and speaks when it makes sense for her to do so (i.e., when Xander suddenly refuses to talk more about Africa, Faith acts insulted instead of just letting it slide). Xander acts and speaks when it makes sense for him to so (i.e., in that same conversation when Faith pushes to hear more about Africa, Xander doesn't feel comfortable opening himself up to it and emotionally withdraws).

The characters also "earn" what they get. Faith "earns" Xander's story when she reveals that she knows he sometimes laughs at her Boston accent and doesn't really mind. Xander "earns" Faith's story when he tells her about Eshu and Legba.

What the characters hear from each other affects them. Faith gets the inkling that Xander's distance isn't necessarily because of her and their shared past (although that's part of it), but because of larger issues that rest on Xander's shoulders. Xander is forced to come face-to-face with the Anyanka portion of Anya's past and finally gets an inkling as to what it really means.

The ultiamte long-term affects are hinted at. Both of them end the story shoulder-to-shoulder as equals who are in agreement about their situation, even though they haven't once discussed the case at hand. It points to a future working relationship where the two characters more fully understand the other's position.

Sorry for being long-winded. But I think this is the best way to explain what I mean by it.

Also: Thanks for the compliment. :-)

Thanks for taking the time to give so thorough an answer. It's given me plenty to think about.

Liz chose the long answer.

The short definition of 'cheap storytelling' would be - the resolution of season seven.

The characters made some bad decisions, and had some serious interpersonal conflicts, *and nothing happened.* Next ep, everyone is friends again, magic items show up in the mail, the unbeatable bad-guy gets bored, taunts Buffy some, and then inexplicably gives up and goes away and the good-guys smile and joke over their nonsensical 'victory' and are apparently all bestest friends again, *for no reason.*

It's like, 'oh, we had a whole bunch of stuff going on, but we ran out of pages, so the book ends here, with a screeching halt.'

To me, from a Buffy-fan perspective, that's the best definition of cheap, lazy-ass, unmotivated and sloppy storytelling.

I totally agree with you. They tied up all the loose ends without unravelling the knots first.

Thanks for answering my question.

Wow, what great thoughts!

"How well defined is that audience?"

I'm kind of confused by this question. Do they mean how well the writers can define the audience, or whether the audience self-identifies, or something else?

"People who will read fic even though the shipping element isn't that strong" is the second subgroup I write for. Oddly enough, this actually expands my potential audience

I was wondering about this in terms of gen. I know that some gen authors feel that fandom is all about shipping (and teh pr0n), and I look around, and see where they're coming from. But as far as I can tell, *canon* for something like BtVS is gen. You would *think* lots of people would at least give a gen author a shot and if it had decent characterization, stick with her.

(On that note, I've been meaning to read a fic or two of your forever; they come highly recommended by

a2zmom. I can't say I'll get around to any soon as I don't have that much time on my hands, but I hope you don't mind if I friend you--I love your thoughts here. I also love that Liberty/Justice icon I see you using ;o)

I maybe even tend to go to a greater extreme and say that even if a story has "on screen sex" it's possible for it to be gen, if the sex involved serves the plot instead of being the focus of the plot.

Which is why I'd call BtVS gen. Of course all the characters are romantically involved with other characters (except for Giles), but even when the 'ship is greatly important to the plots (as B/A and W/T are, for example) they're not the beginning and end of the show.

However, my potential audience wants them; my potential audience expects them; it is the norm for my potential audience. So, labels of het/slash or Character/Character it is, even if I think it's not a big deal.

This is something I've been thinking a lot about recently. I have a many multi-chaptered fic (hidden away so far) that is B/A, but to me the focus of the plot is *not* B/A. It's not a romance; the conflict is not the couple. And yet, like the Angelus arc in the second half of S2, the plot *does* depends on B/A and does go into a lot of B/A issues. So I keep wondering, does one have to like B/A to like this fic? And should I warn people who aren't interested in B/A against it?

The other thing is that I am a shipper and I do come at most fanfiction from the perspective of a shipper. So I'm coming at this thing, which *should* be gen in my mind, and probably adding gratuitous smut and B/A moments that the story would be better without. Um, this is a complete tangent; I'm just wondering about how much romance can go into gen until it's not gen any more, and what's the difference, really?

I'll be honest: I'm really very proud of the fact that anyone who wants to can come hang out in my LJ, regardless of who they are (and what they write) on line and in RL.

You should be proud. When I first got interested in fandom I was so into B/A that all the sites I looked at had all this bashing of other ships and characters and I didn't even know there were normal people with level heads who could actually accept people's different tastes!

"Ummmm, dude? That's just wrong."

It's *so* hard to write a fic set in a place you've never been to, especially when you know you've got a reader who has. *commiserates*

She had no fucking clue who I was at the time, but I still targeted her as my potential audience for Whisper.

I find this happens a lot with imaginary audiences. I guess because duh, *imaginary*. You don't write *for* them or so they'll fb; it's a kind of way to guide yourself so you can get idea of what you *yourself* want to write and how.

Hell, I've been anti-recc'd a couple of times

anti-recc'd is a fun and new term for me, I must say. I guess I just find it weird that someone would warn someone else away when that someone could just decide for themselves.

Go away. You bother me.

This is one of the things I was talking about as far as "unaudience"--lots of people have been saying, "I appreciate anyone reading!" which I can see, but seriously, if you don't understand where I'm coming from, why do I want you to read my fic?

Thanks for this post--very provactive thoughts.

Get me on a discussion for writing, and I can go for hours.

I'm kind of confused by this question. Do they mean how well the writers can define the audience, or whether the audience self-identifies, or something else?

I always veiwed it: How well the writers define the audience. For example, a publication that's aimed at public safety professionals might work, but it'll be a very shallow content. Firefighters, police, EMTs, emergency response coordinators all have different concerns that are unique to their profession. That means you have to drill down to the next level: a specific public safety professional like police officers. Police officers have concerns taht are common to their profession that are not necessarily defined by geographic location. There you can get detailed and in-depth with your content and you have a hook you can sell.

In the case of fanfic, it just so happens the audience is self-identified (which makes it easier for the writer to figure out who the audience is) and the hook (show X) is built-in. It's fans of show X who read fanfic. If you want to drill it down to another level and make a subset of the potential audience your primary audience you can, i.e., B/A shippers, B/S shippers, B/X shippers and so on.

I guess philosophically I disagree with the super-specialization approach. I think it's because I started as a newspaper reporter and learned early on that the broader your audience, the better off you are. In RL times, it's financial, in fanfic terms, it's improvement in writing because you're often forced to write characters you either don't like or don't feel you have a good handle on. So the subset (fans who like Xander), while important, are not and never will be the primary audience. The primary audience is the larger potential audience of Buffy fans who aren't extreme to the exclusion about their favorite characters.

Hope that's more clear about what I meant. I know it's a marketing-orientated approach to fanfic, but it's a habit I've carried over from RL. I know it gives some people pause to put it in those terms since it sounds financial. But I think most fanfic writers are asking their audience for time, attention, and feedback. While not putting money in the pocket, it is asking the readers for something in return, even if in a round-about way. Plus, why alienate someone for no reason at all? I think it's given me a greater appreciation of other fans, to tell you the truth, and I've met some really fantastic people who write and read beyond my own intersts as a result (not to mention that I've read their stories, too).

I was wondering about this in terms of gen. I know that some gen authors feel that fandom is all about shipping (and teh pr0n), and I look around, and see where they're coming from.

Ooooo, this is actually something I've given some thought to in the past. I think it's harder for gen writers to get attention at first, true. But, I think gen writers actually have it easier over the long-term if they're around for awhile and get a reputation for turning out decent stories.

And I also think that gen writers do have to work harder on plotting, characterization, and the mechanics of writing to get just as much attention, also true. This is not to say that shippers don't do it, because the ones on my FList most definitely do work very hard to turn out quality stories. I think the pressure on gen writers is a little heavier because (I think) that's all the cards we've got to work with and because you don't have that built in audience that'll read everything just because it's in their 'ship.

Although I admit that I do grind my teeth whenever I go to a fanfic archive and find that everything is arranged by ship. However, I'm the one that chose to work gen-ishly, so that's my problem, not the archive's. Sometimes I also think fanfic awards are also too 'shipper-based and not enough room or consideration is given to gen. Again, that's my problem, not the people doing the nominating or the people running the awards.

Yet, on the other hand, I think there's a huge amount of real benefit if you work in gen. I've seen 'shipper fanfic writers and pr0n writers complain that they've gotten pigeonholed and that trying to write something different will not only earn them a few flames, but will loose them readers.

In this respect, I think gen writers have it much, much, much easier. If you don't like story A, chances are story B will be more to your taste. In short, gen writers get more opportunities to "fail" with readers (i.e., write a story that's not to that reader's taste) than someone who's locked themselves into a certain kind of fic. While I've got nothing scientific to back me up, I've definitely seen (and experienced) readers being more forgiving when I throw out something so completely different than what I usually write. Not only that, they'll stick with a story they're not sure about a lot longer (in the case of multichaptered fics) for the sake of those stories that they do like.

*shrug* Like everything else, it's give-and-take and it all comes down to: "How do you measure attention?" I measure attention by having some really fun discussions in my LJ about writing and plotting. Some people measure it by numbers of recs. Some people measure it by awards. That's really what it boils down to. What are you willing to give up to get what you want? And what do you want anyway? It's not like we're getting paid. :-)

I agree with you, by the way, that the Jossverse actually has a very gen-y heart. Some of the plot lines were shipper-focused (I think that the later seasons of Buffy were too much so), but on the balance it tends toward the gen.

And I'm totally with you on lack of time to read everyone I want. Sometimes I read and don't leave FB (bad!) because I honestly want to write more than, "Ooooo! Shiny!" People get plenty of that. I like going into detail why I liked something.

I'm long winded. Sorry. You bring up good points.

The other thing is that I am a shipper and I do come at most fanfiction from the perspective of a shipper. So I'm coming at this thing, which *should* be gen in my mind, and probably adding gratuitous smut and B/A moments that the story would be better without. Um, this is a complete tangent; I'm just wondering about how much romance can go into gen until it's not gen any more, and what's the difference, really?

There's a joke among my FList that you know I've written a story when you realize the slash between two characters actually has no bearing whatsoever on the plot. :-)

I don't know. I think you've got a tough call. It's a perfect example of the "labelling problem." I'm also in the same boat. I'm actually writing a story for my DarkXander fic-a-thon that's Spike/Faith/Xander. Keep in mind: at no point on screen is there a threesome. It's referenced. In passing. There's no onscreen sex at all. Any sex that takes place is referenced and that's it. Yet, sure as shit if I don't put in Spike/Faith/Xander in the warnings someone will be screaming for my head because OmIgAwD! Slash! Het! Threesome! YUCK! The label has scared away potential readers who, if they read it, would see that there's nothing to kick in those particular squicks. On the other hand, the label has attracted readers looking for teh HAWT sex.

Either way, I lose. The label is not just utterly meaningless as far as actual story content goes, it's outright misleading.

The only way around it (I think) is to list it, but include some kind of caveat such as "mentioned" or "romantic, but not shippy" or "gratuitous porn, but not necessarily pertinent to the plot." I honestly don't know. I've tried different methods to get around the Character/Character issue by putting it in with caveats, but I'm not sure how sucessful it's been.

As for where the line is between gen and romance...don't ask me. You're talking to someone who, on a personal level, can't see why it matters at all regardless of the gender of the characters involved. Yet, despite that, I'm compelled by fandom standards to heavily enforce stuff I don't agree any of it really matters for my own fic-a-thon. It's enough to drive me bats, because I'm pretty sure I'll let an unlabled story go through because of this particular blindspot and there'll be hell to pay over it.

Friend away! You'll find I'm, ummm, ecclectic. You're just as likely to get a music download as you are a fic around here, not to mention some screed about writing or the other.

I think half-my Flist could care less about the fanfic, truth to tell. They're here for the tunes. My brother laughs at me about it.

That definitely clears things up, thanks. And you have a very articulate way of describing a phenomenon I'd noticed but didn't quite know how to approach.

I know it's a marketing-orientated approach to fanfic, but it's a habit I've carried over from RL. I know it gives some people pause to put it in those terms since it sounds financial. But I think most fanfic writers are asking their audience for time, attention, and feedback. While not putting money in the pocket, it is asking the readers for something in return, even if in a round-about way.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "financial" in this context, but I assume people shy because it sounds like writing solely for the sake of audience, when many of us don't. Many fanfic writers: 1. don't want to be professional writers, 2. don't want to improve their writing, and/or 3. would write the same exact thing anyway even if no one was to ever see it, because it's something they feel like they need to do either for fun or self-improvement. #3 is true for me, though the others aren't, and it makes thinking in terms of marketing feel distinctly out of place.

Whisper is "mine"? eeee! *faints*

This is a very thinky post.

I don't know that I have a specific audience *in mind* when I write. Primarily, I tend to write what I want to read (and read what I want to write) Secondarily, I write for my friends/acquaintances, and after that I write for the people in the fandom/ship/genre that I'm writing in.

[quote] I don't know that I have a specific audience *in mind* when I write. Primarily, I tend to write what I want to read (and read what I want to write) [/quote]

My precise answer. I have an audience of one, me.

I wrote A Dale Less Sunny cause I wanted to play with vampire Scoobies, and I wrote Intersections, 'cause I had a hankering to kill off a few Xanders, in a 'you only hurt the ones you love' kinda way. :)

Feedback isn't even an issue for me (although I occasionally hanker for a beta, 'cause I cringe when I find a typo like, a YEAR later...), since I only post on my own website, which doesn't have any such option.

[quote] Oddly enough, this actually expands my potential audience since people who read and/or write het/gen/slash are at least willing to sample the goods... [/quote]

There are a lot of people who *freak* at the idea of certain ships and will not touch a fic that has them with a ten-foot pole. (Myself among them. Words like 'Spuffy' and 'schmoop' and 'all-human AU' in the same sentence have me running like the wind.) But a well-written gen fic, is by definition, just a well-written Buffy story, and any fan of the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a potential audience.

Note that many 'fans' of the show aren't really fans of 'the show,' and actively loathe the core characters, but they have writers that pander to their particular interest as well.

Note that many 'fans' of the show aren't really fans of 'the show,' and actively loathe the core characters, but they have writers that pander to their particular interest as well.

Hell, I'd venture to say that many people aren't even fans of the characters they claim to like.

For example, I don't think that a great deal of the folks at the Xander Zone are fans of the Xander from the show, they're fans of the super-mega-badass Xander who exists almost exclusively in fics written and published at the XZ.

Just as a lot of Spike fans aren't really fans of Spike, the character from the show, they're fans of the-sexass-vamp-with-a-heart-of-gold who's an adorable woobie and the absolute perfect boyfriend for whichever character they want to pair him with at the moment, which seems to be the popular fanon characterization of him in some circles today.

And on and on. You could probably say this about almost any character, really. Sometimes I seriously have to wonder if some of these people even watched the show.

Big honkin' truckloads of 'word' to everything you just said.

[quote] Sometimes I seriously have to wonder if some of these people even watched the show. [/quote]

And the really freaking creepy part is seeing fics up on Fanfiction.net where the author flat out admits to having not seen the show, or only seen the last two seasons, and somehow feels qualified to write the characters.

The hell are they thinking?

There are shows that watched *religiously,* like Babylon 5, that I don't feel qualified to write for, and these punks think they can write characters they know only from amateur smutfics?

Gah. I'm with Tara. "I go on the internet sometimes. But everyone's spelling is really bad, and it's very depressing."

Reminds me of Liz's tale about somebody who basically blasted Xander as a character for being "the biggest slut in the world," and then admitted that their perception was based not on watching the show but on reading lots of fic pairing Xander with lots of different characters, both het and slash. It wasn't until they finally watched the show that they discovered that canonically Xander had only been sexually involved with two girls, not the entire town of Sunnydale! :)

Extra heaping of irony because Xander (2) has had fewer lovers than Buffy (4) or sweet little Willow (3)! Even Oz, who was a regular for 2 and a half seasons, had sex with as many people as Xander, and I doubt anyone would think of him as a 'slut.' Cordelia was the butt of many comments about being 'easy' or a 'vapid whore' and yet she's the only Scoob who left high school a virgin...

Hell, I've been anti-recc'd a couple of times over the Xander issue, both pro and con. I have no idea how I've managed that and I'm afraid to ask.

That means that you've definitely got him right.

I've read alot of Xander fic, and when it comes to your writing of him I have to say this: there is no writer who views Xander as much the same as I do. From other writers I have always a feeling to some degree that they are fanwanking him to their own liking. Pasrt of me has that also with your writing, except that it feels the same way as I do. Therefor I can never be troubled by the way you portray Xander, and as a consequence I will always like him.

As for your style and built up. Sometimes it feels I need to work to get through to it, but I aways know it is worth it, because you're working to particular Xander-centric scenes that I am going to enjoy completely. For example the Wood/Xander scene in History or the Eva/Xander scene in your latest chapter.

And on top of it, you are a Xander/Faith shipper. The world is blessed :)

Great post! I'm so glad you see me as a gen author because that's the way I pretty much see myself. I actually regret the single POV I've used in Reassembling because I think it promoted the shipper element too much. Then again, I wrote that story will a partial goal of making Spike/Xander believable to some friends who don't read fanfic at all. How's that for lousy audience targeting? :)

I must admit, I get an extra little boost when someone who's writing I admire gives me feedback. It makes my whole day!

It's a strange thing but some readers have never watched the show. I've seen it mentioned too many times to discount the phenomenon. Heck, there are writers who have never watched the show. Some of them, like witling, are so damn good I read them anyway. :) There's been some fandom drift recently and some of the authors I follow have delved into Stargate Atlantis. I've never seen the show but I've read their stuff. You never know, Buffy fans may be a more narrow audience than you, in fact, possess. :)

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