Buffy fandom thot for the day...

[liz_marcs]

You know? It's entirely possible to discuss why Spike is an interesting character without turning around and randomly attacking Xander as the worst fictional character to stalk the face of television.

It is especially possible to pull off this feat when no one was talking about Xander to begin with.

Repeat after me: "I can discuss why I like character X without bashing the fucking hell out of character Y, especially when I am an on an Internet board full of people who like character Y."

Failing to show a little consideration for your fellow fen is annoying, especially when you repeatedly engage in this behavior. Let's just say it's not the first time you've randomly dragged in a certain specific character you "hate" to show why your favored certain specific character is "superior."

If you can't argue for your favored character based on his or her merits without bashing another character...well, I've just gotta wonder about that.

Also, here's a tip: It is entirely possible to be a "real Faith fan" and ship Faith/Xander. No. Really.

It doesn't mean that everyone who ships Faith/Xander likes Faith just because she had sex with Xander at some point during Season 3. It is entirely possible to like Faith as, well, Faith separately from Xander. I like Faith for a lot of reasons. Schtupping and then trying to strangle the hell out of Xander at a later date doesn't happen to be one of those reasons. Kthnxbi.

So, please stop calling people who are Faith/Xander shippers "not really Faith fans" beacause you happen to strongly dislike the male half of the ship. I don't pick on your favored ship, do I? I don't say you're not really a fan of character X if you ship character X with character Y, do I? So stop it.

Jesus. Can't people just play nice?

And can we for one day stop it with the, "I know I am but what are you" tactics that were the cadillac of insults back when we were all, oh, 6? Especially since this is over an television show that's been off the air for how many years now?


Thanks for letting me air that niggling bit of irritation. I needed a slight steam vent. I think it's the project from hell. It's upped my annoyance level to the point where I'm getting easily annoyed by everything.


*wanders off singing 'Kumbayah'*


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Comments

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I'd love to know who this was.

And Dolly Parton singing Stairway to Heaven completely rocks.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Ditto.

[-normal-girl-.livejournal.com]

Hi I friended you because your Faith rocks my world. I really love Faith/Xander and was trying to write a Faith fic (my faith sucks something nasty but I am going to keep practicing in private) and a friend pointed me your way.

Anyway I must admit I am slightly guilty of that, I have a hard time not hating Illyria becaue I loved/love Fred so much. I really liked Illyria but I feel even kind of guilty for admitting that. I know fiction- need to get ove it- blah, but man its hard!

p.s. I think its funny that Spike and Xander are the two players in this debate since most people I know slash them together! Though about that ship I have no comment because I am trying to play nice.

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

I think its funny that Spike and Xander are the two players in this debate since most people I know slash them together!

That was going to be my comment as well.

People who bash characters need to stop and take a deep breath and figure out why. Like -- I don't like Willow, particularly later Willow. But I feel zilch need to make her look bad so that, oh, Buffy can look good. The two are not dependent on each other!

Where was this craziness happening?

[set-aka-ian.livejournal.com]

[quote] p.s. I think its funny that Spike and Xander are the two players in this debate since most people I know slash them together! Though about that ship I have no comment because I am trying to play nice. [/quote]

Someone at the TWoP forums dug up an old James Marsters con appearance where he stated flat out that he was coming back in season four as Spike 'to play Xander's boyfriend.'

So, at some point, ME intended to have Spike and Xander as a canonical pairing (which means, no Anya, and no Tara). But Seth Green left, and they abandoned the 'Xander is gay/bi' setup and went with Willow hopping the fence instead.

I'll admit, I kinda loathe the idea, but it's amusing in light of the occasionally virulent denials that some fans hurl out about how Xander and Spike shippers are insane and that the ship could never happen, since it almost *did!*

I didn't feel a hint of spark in Willow / Tara, and thought Anya was the death of Xander as a relevant character, but I've gotta admit, I cringe at the thought of the people who brought us MagicCrackWillow and GayJokeAndrew writing a Big Gay Xander, all hands-flopping and falsetto-shrieking like the one-note stereotypes they tended to fall back on in the latter seasons.

[faith-chaos.livejournal.com]

I think I've told ya before that your Faith was pretty much what got me hooked oin Living History, and then on your whoile writing.

I know I'm a Faith Fan [see icon], and I am sort of a Xander Fan too. I was a Faith fan first and then liked the Faith/Xander couple, thnx to both you and Nwhepcat. I guess I just don't see how your fav ship/ random ship has anything to do with whther you're a 'true' fan or not.

And yeah, I was thinking about the zillions and zillions of Spike/Xander fics out there...

I don know that at the end of S3 they weren't sure who was gonna be gay, Willow or Xander, and I think that's pretty cool, leaves a lot to imagination and it's good for fic, lol. I don't see the Spike love though. I kinda like him, sopmetimes, but it'ds just not my coup of tea.

F.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Wow, what a concept. To like Spike *and* Xander, to understand why Xander hated Spike and why Spike would more often than not liked to have broken Xander in two, and to understand why they sometimes even put their differences aside to work together. Boy, howdy!

And what on earth does liking Faith/Xander have to do with being a Faith fan or not? Buzwha?

[bastardsnow.livejournal.com]

Because obviously, if you're a Faith/Xander fan you're a 14 year old kid who thinks Eliza Dushku is hot, and "Gosh, that Xander guy is just like me, except he has hot friends." Thus, you're like "Man, if I was Xander, I would *totally* fuck Eli -- er, Faith. I think that he should do that. pr0n!!!"

See?

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Well, seeing as how Xander is the worst person evah, a woman hater and all sorts of other bad stuff if you want them to be together then you can't be a Faith fan.

It doesn't work of the other people don't work from the assumption that Xander is the worst person evah. :)

[skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com]

You saw that on TWoP too, huh? Wonder what you'll think of my response to her, uh, stance on how awful Xander is/was. (Kinda couldn't help it; she goes from saying "Spike's an interesting character" to "Xander's the embodiment of the worst in men" so fast I think most people didn't see that she skipped the offramp and just jumped into another lane of traffic. (I'm bad with the metaphors today.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I am going to have to check this out when I get home.

What's the thread header?

[tessarin.livejournal.com]

Agree with all this.

Why is that all fandoms as they mature seem to implode into factions bitterly hostile to each other ?

Surely the fact that Buffy/Angel can be interpreted multiple ways is what made the shows so good at generating debate and interest .But then my ships always seem doomed , B/X ,F/X and Trip/tpol even Kate/Jack seems to be sneered at now.

Plenty of space for everyone to enjoy their tastes without snarking on others.

And last but definately not least really loved Living history by the way.

[texanfan.livejournal.com]

I'm a Xander fan to the core. When it comes down to it, I don't care who he's shipped with, or if he's shipped at all, as long as he's done in character and well written. I've heard these wierd rumors that Xander is generally hated and it really freaks me out. I'm kind of glad I stay out of the meta for the most part. I don't even know what TwoP is.

I strongly dislike Andrew, but even I can admit a big part of that is unfair because I felt he took screen time from Xander. Same goes for Riley. I think I would have like Kennedy better if they hadn't made her rebound girl. Do I feel any need to go on a board and proclaim these things to people who adore this characters? No. Will I refuse to read fic in which they are portrayed in a good light? Hell, no. Talk about tempests in teapots.

[learnedhand-dj.livejournal.com]

My favorite part of the whole post might just be that you said "schtupping." I love that word.

Debates that are based on liking or disliking certain qualities in fictional TV characters may just be the most pointless debates in all of fandom.

I started in BtVS fandom reading MBTV recaps, and finally decided after over a year that I knew enough about the show, and it was safe to go into the forums. (I think MBTV had been renamed TWoP by then.) I'd presumed that people would be using this great platform to share their thoughts about the most recent episode, the direction of the show, whether certain writers or directors were noticeably better, that kind of thing, so I wanted to make sure I knew my stuff before going in. Yeah, it was TWoP, so I was expecting snark, but I presumed it would be focused mostly on the quality of the show, either technically or artistically. I was really surprised to see all the pro- and anti-character stuff going on, especially the anti-Dawn rants (I think it was around the middle of Season 5). Sure, I understand people being upset at ME for creating the character, or having problems with how the character was being written. But so many people just unloaded their angst on Dawn as a character, instead of on the people who were writing her. And what's the point of that?

Don't get me wrong, I learned a lot of great stuff from the TWoP forums, and it's definitely made me a less passive, more critical TV watcher. But I've also learned some not-so-great stuff. And probably #1 among them is that some people over-identify with these characters. They obviously insert themselves into the narrative, and latch onto the character that would appeal to them if the character was a real person. They can't take that step back and assess the character from a storytelling perspective: what purpose does the character serve, and is it doing a good job of it? Instead, it's all "Spike is sooo hot" or "Angel + Buffy 4Eva!" or "Xander is a big poopyhead" or "Die, Dawn, die!" Sometimes the person uses bigger words or tries to dress it up as a critical assessment, but a lot of the character commentary out there boils down to how much the character appeals to the commentator.

My view is: if you want to tell me that Xander was superfluous to the narrative, fine. If you want to argue that Xander's only meaningful role was to embody the negative characteristics of men, knock yourself out. But, if you feel the need to tell the world that Xander (or Spike, or anyone else) is a jerk, keep it to yourself. We don't wanna know.

[set-aka-ian.livejournal.com]

Dawn was a brilliant idea and I could see lots of awesome potential for her development and the exploration of her not-real-ness as a metaphor for teeenaged alienation and of siblings feeling that they are sucking the life out of each other, or intruding unwelcome like into each others lives and relationships.

Not so great on the execution, unfortunately. :/

[swedish15.livejournal.com]

First: What's schtupping? It almost sounds like stupsen, but when did Faith shove Xander?

As for Faith/Xander - taking this over to real life leaves a scary kind of thought.
I mean, consider: Given persons A and B, which are together, and person C, who is a very good friend to person A, but doesn't like their relationships for any of many various reasons. Now, I come along, being good friend with A,B and C, yet a totally wonderful world apart from said kerfluffle. Then I mention, maybe in passing, to C that I like, say, the birthday party B has thrown for A, and get:"You're not a true friend of A!!OneOne!!Eleven!"
I most certainly would wonder about C' sanity.

Why can't people just get along? I mean, I don't like Spike post S4. I seriously don't like Spike, and wish he had been staked. Still, that doesn't mean I've got the right to tell other people they shouldn't like the character. I may give them my personal reasons - but even that wouldn't make Spike the worst character ever.

Someday, children will be taught how to discuss things, how to accept different points of view, and when not to accept certain points of view, and everyone will be happier.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

First: What's schtupping?

BWAH! Schtupping is Yiddish for fucking. MY wacky b-i-l used to have his answering machine say "You have dialed 1-800-schtup. Please help a lonely old man by leaving your name and number." He used to get a lot of hang-ups.

People get incredibly up in arms about characters to the point of inanity. Spike is far from a favorite character, but I see his good points as well as his considerable bad ones. Same goes for all the characters. Except for Caleb. Nothing but bad there.

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Wow.

I have been boggling all day at places hither and yon in fandom, and this one leaves me...beyond boggled.

I never got the "X was the greatest character ever...or at least not as lame as Xander" which, of course, I mean in example because not liking Xander is beyond my ken, but my Ken is someone else's Skipper.

The X/F pairing not being "real" Faith fans...wow. I think I ship Faith with almost everyone, and I love her on her own and that just...okay.

You know, I've last 2 1/2 years in the fandom as a primarily S/X shipper (with sides of lots of others) and not really ever gotten brushed with the "you're not a real Xander fan because you write SLASH" brush, but I've gotten a few covert looks from that direction. Love of a character is love of a character. Period.

And, too, fandom interests change. I can't see my love of Xander ever waning, but I started out in fandom as someone who loved Spike almost as much as Xander, and that's really waned over the years. I'd love to blame fandom and rabid JM-fen, but it was really a progression into other characters that caused it. What I will NEVER understand, however, is how one's love of a character (or pairing) affects anyone else who might not be interested in said character or pairing. I've happily splashed around in slash, het and gen and never felt like I was slighting anyone or felt slighted.

But then I'm a big pant person. That is to say grown-up, not big ass.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Oh, that is a pretty carzy stance. The only knock I every had against a F/X pairing in the future was the general concern that Faith didn't seem to display much awareness of him... that she was so much more wrapped up in issues with Buffy that she didn't seem to consider what she'd done to him...

Not that Xander, with all his flaws, is such a terrible guy that Faith shouldn't possibly date him because it would be bad for her. Xander has a lot of flaws, and I bring them up all the time. He's the kind of guy who would piss me off quite a bit, but it hardly means I think he's a bad guy. He's not.

But then, when one is aiming to use characters as measuring sticks to prop up others, it doesn't really matter what their virtues or flaws are, does it?

[set-aka-ian.livejournal.com]

[quote] But then, when one is aiming to use characters as measuring sticks to prop up others, it doesn't really matter what their virtues or flaws are, does it? [/quote]

Word. If I like Spike, it's going to be for his ball-busting sardonic asides in season two, his badass swagger, the whole attitude, etc. It's not going to be because he's 'better than Angel' or 'better than Riley' or 'better than Xander.'

Spike's a different character, and the parts I like about that character have *nothing to do* with how he measures up against the other characters on the show.

It's just amazing to me that this is the best argument someone can find for liking Spike, is 'well Xander sucks.' Can't find a reason to explain your liking for Spike? Well I really can't articulate why I adore Kennedy, so join the club.

I can tell you what *aren't* reasons I like Kennedy. It's not 'because Rhona sucks,' or 'because Vi sucks' or 'because Amanda represents the absolute worst traits any woman could possibly every have and is the worst character on the entire show.'

I like Kennedy for who *Kennedy* is. And I like Xander for who Xander is, not for who Spike isn't.

[chriself.livejournal.com]

It has recently come to my attention that many, many people are, in fact, profoundly stupid. *shakes head in wonder*

[koos73.livejournal.com]

Xander can be the embodiment of the worst in men for I care. He's still my favorite character. I rather see it as a compliment to his character. He's the worst and yet still he's beloved by his friends and beloved by large fanbase. Amazing! I guess it has to be compensated by his enormous heart ;)

Of course I don't agree with the statement, especially considering it's coming from a Spike fan and because I loath stalking.

The only bashing on Xander that really pisses me off is when they call Xander a rapist based on The Pack. Calling a sixteen year old boy, a teenager, a rapist to a girl he completely loves, only to defend your own character is beyond sick and transents fandom. It just shows how sick some fans are, and this in return makes me loath Spike and his obsessive fanbase.

I am also a bit irked when they call Xander a bigot to defend Spike. Mostly because that would make Spike the biggest bigot in the world and not to mention a traitor of his own race. And at the same time the Spike obsessive fanbase bitches on Buffy that so horrible of using poor Spikey, because Spike is innoncent in his contribution - afterall he just a souless monster, wasn't he? Spike made this his argument in S7 twice! So, whose the bigot here? Xander or Spike or Spike's obsessed fanbase?

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Hey, about that story you've concrited, you know the one, the non Xander!Hating one :D, it's making me want to go out and write something where Spike goes out and beats puppies, abuses Dawn and is pretty much a scumbag, having the narrator be all "And Spike, rapist extraordinaire that he is..."

How do I make it stop?

Especially since it goes against the way I see Spike...

But I'd love to see what the reaction would be, maybe I could defend it with "Hate fic? No way, it isn't hate fic, no siree bob! I don't even know what hate fic is!"

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Buddy? You have no fucking idea just how wanky it's gotten in there. There's actually a full-blow paranoia eruption where a couple of us are now being accused of stalking her.

Go read it before she deletes the whole entry if you want to really be amused.

It'll lay the groundwork for when you go "bashing fic? moi? never heard of it!" when you write the Spike eats puppies while making Dawn eat his undead manmeat fic.

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

Sing it, sister! I see that a lot, and I just don't get it. Just because I personally don't like a character doesn't change who the character is, and just because your favorite character dislikes another character doesn't mean you have to write him or her as Satan!

Personally, I find late-season Willow to be something of a jerk, but that doesn't mean that *Xander* thinks so. On the contrary, he loves her to little bits. If I were to write serious BTVS fic, not a silly over the top crack fic, I'd have to take that into account and either simply have her elsewhere during the story, or try to give her character a fair shake. I couldn't just write "And then Xander said 'I hate you, Willow! You are a big poopyhead!'" out of the blue, and not hurt the fic immensely.

Denying the significance of another character's place in canon just to make your own favorite character look good makes your argument and/or story look stupid.

I think some people do it out of some kind of twisted 'ship loyalty. "Lots of people pair my favorite love object with someone else in fic! That makes that person a romantic rival that I must destroy in straw man fashion in order to make *my* pairing believable and/or prove that I really really love my pairing!" Then, sometimes, they do it out of an odd solidarity to their favorite character. "My favorite character dislikes this other character! Therefore, I must prove that the other character is scum in order to show that I love and agree with my favorite character!" There's a lot of both of these in Queer as Folk US fiction, unfortunately, blemishing otherwise good fic.

In QaFUS, Michael is Brian's lifelong friend who remains so throughout the show despite a certain amount of mutual flirting, while Justin is Brian's on again off again lover. In canon, sometimes Michael and Justin get along and sometimes they don't. Either can be ficced in a way that I like, but sadly most fic about one makes an Eeeevile straw man out of the other, which knocks me out of the story and makes me a sad panda.

To a lesser degree, this pops up in BtVS fandom between some Xander fans and Spike fans. For the above mentioned reasons and because their *fans* often don't like each other, somehow bashing the other character is seen as 'winning one for our side' as if fandom was a football game.