liz_marcs | Random tape watching...day I forget how many...

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Random tape watching...day I forget how many...

Happy Birday mara_sho!

Latest random blank tapes:

Ken Burns is a flipping genius. I know some Jazz afficianados don't like Jazz, but for someone like me who was almost completely ignorant of Jazz, it was an eye-opening introduction that expanded my musical horizons to an insane degree. I get a little defensive about Jazz, as if you can't tell. Plus, he hooked me with history, folklore, and legend. I still got hooked watching the episodes that managed to survive over re-taping.
As a personal side note, back when I worked for unnamed company that gave me my highest-paying but most boring writing job ever, I managed to track down Ken Burns' phone number for an interview. It actually wasn't that hard because the man doesn't hide. At all. Anyway, when I called, he answered the phone himself. Poor guy had stammer through a refusal to do the interview. He was very sweet about it.
Holy crap! Burns and Allen! Awesome! I own some pro-video tapes (no DVDs...yet), but this is just a snippet, so I can't tell which episode this is from. What I love most about this show is the random product placement for the Carnation brands of evaporated and condensed milk and how they just don't bother to hide it. They will stop the entire plot to do the product placement. Like Harry von Zell delivering Carnations to Gracie and her trying to milk the suckers because she figures that's where Carnation milk comes from, then Harry explaining that it doesn't come from carnations, but "contented cows." Then we go on with plot. Hi-Larious.
It wasn't this episode, but one of my favorite bits was when Fred Clark became the third actor to step into the roll of sane neighbor Harry Morton. He comes on, does his first scene with George, and as he walks out, ol' George turns to the audience and introduces the actor by name and asks the crowd to give him a hand. Didn't even try to gloss over the cast change. C'mon. How is that not awesome?
When you think about it, Burns and Allen is unique. It's a sitcom that focuses on the crazy neighbors next door, instead of the crazy neighbors next door being the supporting players.
Another personal note: One of my best interviews ever was with the guy who edited the Burns and Allen show. Gracie may have been the comic brains, but George was the crazy creative genius coupled with a brilliant business mind. He was all over whatever new technology had just proven itself useful. Not an early adopter, but if he saw potential...whammo. Also? Hell of a task-master. He'd fire you one day, and give you a raise the next for putting up with him.
One half of a M*A*S*H episode. It looks like it's near the end of the run of the series since everyone seems to be talking in a sane manner in the mess tent. Don't know the episode. Don't know why it's here. Not a huge post-Radar M*A*S*H fan.
'Into the Woods' BtVS S5 from FX. You know what? I've decided that I like Riley. He fucked up, but I like Riley. Poor Marc Blucus was in a little over-his-head acting-wise, but he had charm, too. I still don't understand why Xander gets smacked around by fans like a cheap cat toy for his role in that episode. He didn't tell Buffy to stay with Riley. He was pretty damn clear: If she could love him, she should work it out. If she doesn't love him, she should break his heart, make it a clean break, and let him go. I forgot all about the "let him go" part, honestly.
I remember how happy I was when Riley "staked" Spike in that episode because the character and his creepy stalking ways were starting to get on my nerves. Knowing what I know now? I was, "Ooooooh! So close! So close!! Riley, you idiot! A plastic stake?!?!"
I just realized the core Buffy-Xander dynamic in BtVS-WB. Xander says something she doesn't like. Buffy turns on him and throws his own faults back in his face. Xander refuses to back down. Sometimes Buffy listens, sometimes she doesn't, but you do get the sense that she takes him a hell of a lot more seriously than Willow does. Hell, Giles takes Xander a lot more seriously than Willow does. Also getting the vibe from this episode that Buffy and Xander are better friends than Willow and Xander, probably because Buffy and Xander are more willing to clash when they disagree. Remember when Xander was precepto boy? I miss those days.
As annoyed as I am that Dawn survived past her sell-by date at the end of S5, she's so flipping cute in this episode that I just want to give her a noogie. After seeing the S7 episodes, it looks like Michelle Trachenberg was as beaten down as the rest of the cast by the end.
And once more, I'm struck by the fact that, wow! The Scoobies are actually friends! Who knew?
Wow! That was a fast hour! And there was...plot! And subplots! And every cast member had something to do! And a lot happened in it! 'Into the Woods' is definitely better than I remember, considering it's been at least a year since I've seen it.
Farscape is one of the best scifi shows, ever. It kicks all kinds of ass. And I'm so ashamed because I tend to leave this one off of my "shows that are a hell of a lot better than Firefly" list. Remember SciFi Channel's "Chain Reaction" extravaganzas? I miss those.
Farscape 'The Way They Weren't' from S2 when both Aeryn's and Pilot's less-than-stellar pasts are exposed. No Aeryn! Dont make me cry! Oh, crap! Pilot's helping! WHAAAAAAAAAH! And Zhaan? You're such a bitch. Remind me why I didn't like you, why don't you. D'Argo? Still love you. Rygel? Still love you, too. Chiana? One phrase for you: "Go Nebari! You rock!"
Farscape 'Green-Eyed Monster' from S3 is not my favorite episode, but it's still a damn good ride. Hard to top being swallowed by a giant Budong, Talyn making John's life uncomfortable on the ship, and Crais being Crais even with the Talyn torture.
I have to move Farscape up, as it waaaaaay up in my Netflix que.

I also pretty much don't get why people complained about Xander's speech. What, just because he had been interested in Buffy and was a guy he couldn't give her advice?

Riley, hey, I understand people thought he was boring, but I think he could've been a fun character. Also don't know why people blame him and only him for leaving, vamp whores was bad true, but if I remember correctly Buffy allowed Dracula to pretty much bite her too. And then it was their issues, I could see how they were both in the right.

Dawn... Of course Michelle was beaten down. She was given nothing meaningful to do, just be window dressing like most of the other characters.

I think I need to re-evaluate Farscape, see why people rave so much about it.

I think it makes sense that Buffy and Giles would take Xander more seriously than Willow does (though I'm not sure I actually agree about Giles.) Willow has known Xander since kindergarden, whereas Giles and Buffy met Xander as a young adult. One of my oldest friends works in politics and is quite successful and it's amazing for me to see him in that context because people take him so seriously, whereas a part of me will always think of him (and maybe treat him) as "Little Mikey" the dorky but sweet guy who loved to annoy me. It doesn't mean that I don't love him, just that it's hard for me to reconcile that Michael with my Mikey, especially since he still loved to annoy me.

"Into the Woods" was one of the best episodes in that season... much enjoyment to be had on all scales of emotions :)

I watch a lot of "Buffy" on FX but I manage to only watch it until "The Gift" and I pretend in my own world that the show ends there. Because I'm SO with you when looking back at older episodes - the Scoobies WERE friends, they DID count on each other as friends, and there was a reason for Willow, Giles, and Xander to exist on the show....

As for Riley, I didn't hate him, per se, but he was a horribly boring guy who only got somewhat interesting right before they decided to take him out and somewhat replace him with REALLYPATHETIC!Spike of season five...

The dink I heard is that Ken used Jazz to talk about race, not music. Somewhat valid but I liked it. Favorite part? In the last chunk. Voiceover about free jazz and how an artist thought the audience should prepare for the concert just like he does. Branford Marsalis: "That's just self-indulgent bullshit."

I don't know that Willow and Xander had meaningful interaction post-"Lovers Walk". I kinda miss it. And I dig "Into The Woods".

I don't think you could talk about the history of jazz without talking about race. Regardless, the documentary is excellent as an intro to jazz music. It really covers a lot of different styles of music. I don't think anyone could watch it without getting an appreciation for some form of jazz music. In that sense, it was quite a bit better than Scorsese's blues miniseries a few years ago, which was a bunch of unconnected films about different artists with no real historical information.

There is a difference between addressing the racial aspects inheirent in the story and dropping elements of the whole in order to fit your theory. My Jazz prof summed up his opinion of the series with one sentence: "Stanley Crouch is a racist." There are stories I desperately wanted to hear that weren't there, but there were lots of stories I didn't know that were.

I own the Jazz set on DVD and I'm very glad I do, even as I point out what I consider to be flaws.

And yes, Marty's Blues set was hit and very much miss, and I won't be buying it. But there are parts. The Marty-directed segment, "Feel Like Going Home", following Corey Harris around was great and did a good job setting up proto-blues.

Sorry. Interupted.

The Clint Eastwood set proved piano blues is far more closely related to jazz. Still, It was worth watching. Mostly.

Xander says something she doesn't like. Buffy turns on him and throws his own faults back in his face. Xander refuses to back down.

I don't know. . . that explanation of the dynamic seems pretty lopsided. Xander is just honest and he sticks to his righteous guns while Buffy gets bitchy and vindictive. I don't think their dynamic is as simple as that. Buffy does get nasty with Xander when he says something she doesn't like, but Xander says some mean things in mean ways that would make anyone feel attacked. It's like a lesson in how not to communicate when you look at them in WB seasons. It is very often two people lashing out at each other in anger, trying to hurt with words, with some good messages getting lost in the mix.

I liked Into the Woods, and even though I liked Riley well enough, I don't think the show missed him.

P.S. I tried watching Farscape, but I just don't get the love. Does it somehow get magically better after the first season?

It does get a whole lot better in S2, but I also understand that it's a personal taste thing. I happened to like the concept of a the titular character who was so in over his head, that he had to play catch-up with everyone.

Notice how Liz didn't say Xander says something true she doesn't like. Buffy turns on him and throws his own non-existant faults back in his face.

Xander's no saint and hardly has a lock on truth. :)

Oh I'm aware that Liz isn't being a complete Xander-apologist and I'm sure (or hopeful) that she knows I'm not picking a fight with her :)

It's just a subtle difference in language that caught my attention. Xander says things and then refuses to back down- kind of passive and/or assertive language. Buffy turns on and throws-- aggressive language; that's what I'm responding to. Kind of like if I, as a Buffy-lover, would have said something like "Xander takes a jab at Buffy. Buffy gets upsets and challenges him. Xander refuses to acknowledge her point of view." It's basically outlining the same interplay, but the inferences change. Someone comes out looking better than the other, when IMO, I do think it is more complex than that.

I'm a psychologist-- I get all tetchy and picky about the subtle stuff :)

Oooh. Guess BTVS gives you lots to analyse. :)

And on your phrasing the takes a jab at implies something Liz's phrase didn't. That is, it does to me, but English isn't my first language, so, what the heck do I know. :)

And don't pick a fight with Liz, please! She's scary! :)

Liz is oh so frightening with her big brain and pleasant attitude, isn't she? :)

Heeee!

Seriously though, I do tend to agree with Xander a lot of the time (not all the time, just a lot), but I'm also the first to say that he's not the most pleasant person deal with when he goes into 'Alexander the Great' mode. Then again, I prefer to deal with guys like Xander who'll be upfront with their issues than someone like Riley who didn't say "boo" until it's too late.

Plus, I do like Buffy quite a lot. Upon watching the older episodes, I forgot just how much I did like her once upon a time. Although, I admit, I've actually gotten fonder of her BtVS-WB incarnation than I originally was during the first run. I always at least knew where she was coming from, even if I didn't agree with her, and I could sympathize with her a lot.

Compare to Willow, who liked through most of the original BtVS-WB run, and now I just keep picking that character apart to an unfair degree upon reviewing the episodes. I think it's because Willow, the character, never really paid for a damn thing she did. All she'd do is tear up, say she was sorry, and she'd be forgiven. Heck, she even scored a trip to England at one point.

Contrast with Buffy who really needed a vacation and never got to go hang with Giles in England. I almost don't blame Buffy for going to party in Rome for awhile while it's hinted the rest of the Scoobs are scrambling the world-over to deal with the fallout of the spell in 'Chosen.' Buffy definitely needed "me-time" loooooong before 'Chosen.'

Also, contrast to Buffy, Giles, and Xander, who pretty much paid (sooner or later) for every little thing they did wrong. Even Spike didn't get a completely free pass, considering he was the constant damsel-in-distress and tortured for more than half of S7.

I even still liked Buffy in S6 in the BtVS-UPN incarnation. I didn't like what they did to the other characters, but I did have a tremendous amount of sympathy for her. I wasn't one of the ones proclaiming her a bitch, but I did grit my teeth that the writers seemed hell-bent on making her a constant victim of circumstances. Depression I get. Unrelenting dragging Buffy through the mud? Poor Buffy, I say.

The only time I didn't like Buffy was in the later half of S7. At that point, my sympathy went from Buffy to the actress that played her. Talk about a bullet in the brain of a character. And again, part of the problem is you really had to fanwank where the character was coming from. I can understand they want to show the distance between Buffy and the various Scoobs, but they also put distance between Buffy and the audience. And that's where the problem was.

Seriously though, I do tend to agree with Xander a lot of the time (not all the time, just a lot), but I'm also the first to say that he's not the most pleasant person deal with when he goes into 'Alexander the Great' mode.

I think the best way I've ever heard it put is this: When Xander rips into Buffy, he's always justified. However, he is not always as justified as he thinks he is.

Xander's always right in his confrontations with Buffy (I counted 4 in the first three years and that was about it), it's just that he's undiplomatic about the way he puts things. But he is right.

And Buffy's lamest comeback was 'you were following me', when confronted with the fact they knew she'd been concealing Angel's return. And she didn't need an intervention?

Tell that to Jenny and Kendra.

Oh wait, they were dead.

Look at S5 from "BvsD" to "Into The Woods" and you'll see them working themselves up to writing him out of the series. Look at "Family"! Buffy says "We're family" and what's the picture? Scoobies, Dawn, Anya, Tara and Spike(!) and where's Riley? Off getting sucked off by a vamp chick. He is not family, they were telling us, and his days on the series are numbered.

I enjoyed this post, but was not quite awake when I first read it. You mention Ken Burns' Jazz, then talk about Burns and Allen, which my mind turned into Ken Burns and Allen. I don't think that show would work...
;)

First and forever a 'Scaper, here: I came to Firefly (and then AtS and BtVS) looking for a next thing after Farscape was cancelled (I like Firefly, by the way, but I'm tolerant of it being derivative: I watched Burns and Allen first run, and all TV reminds me of what it stole from earlier stuff).

"Green Eyed Monster" is not the greatest Farscape episode, by a long shot, but it serves as notice that SG1 has a better writer acting in a lead role than it has on its writing staff.

Julia, attempting to wake up sufficiently to get ready to go to Seattle for the first time in three months

Farscape was a brilliant show. Farscape and Babylon 5 are a billion times better than Firefly.

I've decided that I like Riley. He fucked up, but I like Riley. Poor Marc Blucus was in a little over-his-head acting-wise, but he had charm, too.

I liked Riley too - now the whole Buffy/Riley relationsip was kinda boring for me but hell after what came after - oh god how I wished it back!

I remember how happy I was when Riley "staked" Spike in that episode because the character and his creepy stalking ways were starting to get on my nerves. Knowing what I know now? I was, "Ooooooh! So close! So close!! Riley, you idiot! A plastic stake?!?!"

*snort* right there with ya ;)

Farscape rocks! One of the best shows ever!

Farscape 'The Way They Weren't' from S2 when both Aeryn's and Pilot's less-than-stellar pasts are exposed. No Aeryn! Dont make me cry! Oh, crap! Pilot's helping! WHAAAAAAAAAH! And Zhaan? You're such a bitch. Remind me why I didn't like you, why don't you. D'Argo? Still love you. Rygel? Still love you, too. Chiana? One phrase for you: "Go Nebari! You rock!"

I love this ep - love it! Whoever I try to get into Farscape that's one of the eps I always show. Works every time!

And *grumble* I still haven't see the last season. The Farscape DVDs are so damn expensive ...

Remember SciFi Channel's "Chain Reaction" extravaganzas? I miss those

OH GHOD YES THOSE WERE AWESOME

Almost as awesome as the TNT late-night insomniac blocks of X-Files eps, where you would get eps from something like 11 or 12 until 7 in the morning. And the Thanksgiving marathons....((sigh)) Cable channels do seem to be twigging to the fact people like to sit and watch marathons, but it still doesn't beat sitting at home getting your favorite eps off tape/DVD with fewer commercials.

I was unaware there had ever been a problem with Xander's speech in "Into the woods". To me, it felt like a thing a friend would do. I would hope to be a good enough person to be that kind of a friend to someone and that my friends would behave in such a way toward me if the case ever arose (although it is entirely unlikely I would ever date Marc Blucas *g*). I guess it all boils down to how one defines friendship, doesn't it?

Really, that was something that a girlfriend, not a guy friend, should've been telling her, but Tara wasn't close enough, Dawn was too young and Willow would have nevergiven that advice. She wants people to be around even when it's obvious they should go.

From what I recall, the amount of smacking around done unto Xander for his part in the episode was directly proportionate to one of several factors.

1)How much the smacker disliked B/R and wanted it ended and Riley gone no matter what

2)How much they thought Buffy was blameless in the breakdown of B/R and Riley was either complete pondscum for going to the vampire den for "suck jobs," an emotionally clingy wimp, or a posturing macho jerk for having the gall! to want Buffy to sometimes want to turn to him for emotional comfort and support, especially when her mom was sick, since he was nominally her boyfriend ("That selfish prick! Doesn't he know all her focus and energy has to spent on worrying about Joyce? She doesn't have time to waste bolstering his flagging sense of machismo by falsely crying on his shoulder!")

3)How much they wanted Buffy to dump Riley and hook up with newly-in-love Spike by the next episode

4)How annoyed they were with Xander already for how much they perceived him to be perpetually embarassed by Anya, taking her for granted, constantly correcting her, not respecting her, etc., and how his declaration of love for Anya was all about how she "made him feel like a man"

or

5)How they perceived Xander's speech to Buffy about how great Riley was to be either Xander vicariously projecting his own Buffycrush onto Riley, or Marti Noxon's thinly veiled swipe at the audience for not properly appreciating "her" boy Riley.

"# I just realized the core Buffy-Xander dynamic in BtVS-WB. Xander says something she doesn't like. Buffy turns on him and throws his own faults back in his face. Xander refuses to back down. Sometimes Buffy listens, sometimes she doesn't, but you do get the sense that she takes him a hell of a lot more seriously than Willow does. Hell, Giles takes Xander a lot more seriously than Willow does. Also getting the vibe from this episode that Buffy and Xander are better friends than Willow and Xander, probably because Buffy and Xander are more willing to clash when they disagree. Remember when Xander was precepto boy? I miss those days."

I so disagree. The reason Buffy got on so well with Angel and Spike was because when they were in dating mode (S1 - S3 for A, and S6 & 7 for S), they never questioned her. She wouldn't be as close to Xander because he questioned her, and Buffy hated to be questioned. Willow on the other hand at least at one point respected Xander and loved him again in S7, but Buffy didn't care that much because he'd dared to disagree with her.

Buffy was the very epitome of a spoilt child. And one thing a spoilt child hates is anyone who questions them. That's why Buffy - Willow got on so well, up until S7, Willow followed her without question. Not so with Xander.

Farscape is indeed one of the best sci-fi shows ever. I really missed Zhaan in later episodes though. I loved that Chiana had this sweet, kid sister kinda feel to her but underneath she was a badass. You got on her bad side you were dead in the most unpleasant way she could arrange. She and D'Argo were great together!

I always hated that Willow never had to pay for anything she did wrong. And she screwed up A LOT! I think I mark it from Angel's soul restoration spell on. She restores Angel's soul just in time for Buffy to send the souled Angel to Hell rather than the soulless Angelus who might have even enjoyed it. Does she even get yell at about this? No. I won't go farther or I'll get mad.

Oh, that's just unfair. No way is restoring his soul a fault of Willow, she couldn't have done it earlier, it would be like screaming at someone for saving a drowning man, only for him to get shot a moment after.

Other than that, she has loads of less than perfect moments, does stuff that should have had people screaming at her, but this is the Buffyverse, a few tears forgive murder, Willow is pretty much insta forgiven (like pretty much all other characters). :)

I'm not so much arguing about her performing the spell as that the heartbreaking results of the spell don't even make her go "huh" when she finds out in the beginning of s3. She just turns to Giles and asks if she can't please help with the spell. Then Giles tells her, "There is no spell." Willow claims to be Buffy's best friend and, intentionally or not, she's just found out she's caused her massive pain AND SHE DOESN'T EVEN BLINK! Just my feelings, if yours are different that's okay. But I'm pretty firm in my stance.

Oh, you're right on that account, but unfortunately BTVS never was a show that cared much about consequences. The Hyena thing should have left the characters changed, didn't, Angelus tortured Giles, chances he'd ever be even remotely okay with Buffy being with Angel would be null, but little was made of that, Jesse was Xander and Willow's like bestest friend, never mentioned again, Cordelia intensely dislikes Willow's guts, yet come AtS, and she only talks to Willow ...

In BTVS the characters regularly abused each other and somehow the friendship remained, real life, they'd hate each others guts... :)

I will completely agree much was left hanging. I've always particularly disliked the fact that Jesse disappeared without a trace. Rich fanfic fodder though. :)

The Jesse one bugs me.

But what's worse is the Angelus one, he kills Jenny and tortures Giles, in what world would Giles ever be remotely okay with Angel being in Sunnydale?

Mind you, there's a lot of B\A fic out there that ignores that too.

It was Buffy who demanded she perform a black arts ritual to save her having to do the right thing and kill a nut with her boy-friend's face. Buffy pressured Willow into doing it. Willow was acting to please Buffy. While Willow was arrogant and manipulative towards everyone bar Buffy, she always acted like Buffy's tame lap-dog, she was that desperate for Buffy's approval.

The fault for Angel being sent to hell lies completely at Buffy's feet.

If she'd killed him in the mall it wouldn't have been an issue.

If she'd not pressured Willow into first trying the spell and instead done her duty it wouldn't have been an issue.

I never meant to co-op Liz's post to have an argument about Willow's culpability or lack of same on this one issue.

I'm retiring from the field.

I just realized the core Buffy-Xander dynamic in BtVS-WB. Xander says something she doesn't like. Buffy turns on him and throws his own faults back in his face. Xander refuses to back down.

Hammer? Meet head of nail.

That dynamic is exactly what I love about the Buffy/Xander dynamic. Alas, as you said, it was lost along the way (along with most of the rest of what I loved about the show), but it's the driving force of all of my B&X writing (and occasional tentative forays into B/X writing). It was the entire reason for Peace Treaty and is definitely what's making up the majority of chapter three of Whistling in the Dark, which is so much closer to being done than chapter two it's not even funny.

But, yes, THAT'S Buffy and Xander.

"Into the Woods" made me hate Riley, not for leaving, but for leaving the choice on Buffy's shoulders after she finds out he's basically been cheating on her. Talk about timing. I have to meta that to death to not hate Riley in earlier eps for something the writers chose to do to spring Marc Blucas from the show.

That said, I always loved Xander for that speech. Even though his own bias for Riley shows through, even though he thinks Buffy wasn't fair to her boyfriend, he basically lays it out as, "fish or cut bait, babe." He calls her on acting-out in killing all those vamps out of rage, then calls her on the stuff she's not fixing because she's upset. It's a Casablanca, 'you'll regret it if you don't at least talk to the guy' moment-- acknowledging that she's got reason to be pissed, but if she lets that make the decision for her about Riley leaving, she'll be more unhappy later. Much as I hate "As You Were", they *did* get the Buffy-Riley dynamic correct in leading off from Into the Woods. So much that got left unsaid, and unfinished, and they at least managed to finish it in AYW.

The thing is, forgiving Xander on his faults is easier, because he *is* sorry when he screws up-- see BB&B -- and *does* apologize. The stuff people get called on, especially in harsh tones, is the stuff they deny, and Xander's self-image is a lot less 'must be right all the time' than Buffy's or Willow's are. Plus, the stuff he does deny, about being verbally harsh or unforgiving, is subtler stuff that neither Buffy nor Willow is able to call him on effectively (probably because they share the same failing, to lesser degrees).

I always liked Dawn. As awful as her behavior occasionally was in S6, it made perfect in-character sense to me. "Older and Far Away" was just inevitable, with her having absolutely no effective parental figures around. S7 pretty much ended with "Potential" for her, and it was a damn good ep. But I can totally understand why she's said she's not interested in doing anything more with the character, because yeah, by the end, she was as tired as the old-timers.

Farscape-- "The Way We Weren't" breaks me every time. Pilot and Aeryn are two of my favorites anyway, and that whole ep was just owwww. Plus they managed to give it *resonance* with the very first ep, by having Aeryn want to be 'something more' but going about it in such a destructive way. The one and only laugh in that ep is D'Argo and John playing R-S-P and the rest of it is non-stop wonderful angst. *sniffle*

Also getting the vibe from this episode that Buffy and Xander are better friends than Willow and Xander

What's also interesting is that, having seen many discussions of this, I always here people talk about the service Xander performs by calling Buffy on her stuff (or sometimes "putting her in her place") is the similar service Buffy performs - Buffy, calling out how Xander treats Anya and what that might indicate about him. Which is something that he probably needed to hear, and which his friend Willow would never do Did Willow even notice there was something to question?

Did Willow even notice there was something to question?

Probably not -- Willow was still indulging in her own disrespect and dislike for Anya even as late as that very episode and the next (Triangle), although by that point the writers were letting Anya notice and complain about it.

Thanks for the birthday wishes!

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Random tape watching...day I forget how many...

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How Is That Willow's Fault?

Re: How Is That Willow's Fault?

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long bibble

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