The very definition of whiplash...

[liz_marcs]

While going through your collection of used and abused VCR tapes that you'd shove into the VCR to capture whatver on television, you find on one 8-hour tape:

BtVS S6: 'Two to Go' (UPN)
BtVS S3: 'Choices' (FX)
Angel S5: 'A Hole in the World' (WB)
Angel S4: 'Calvary' (WB)
Firefly: 'Objects in Space' (FOX)
BtVS S6: 'Hell's Bells' (FX)
BtVS S6: 'Entropy' (UPN)
BtVS S5: 'The Replacement' (WB)

As you can tell by the last listing, this was a very old tape! And it was used over and over and over because between each random episode, there were snippets of other things.


What I Have Learned Upon Reviewing the Contents of This Tape

• Nothing...I mean nothing gives you whiplash like watching 'Entropy' followed immediately by 'The Replacement.' Nothing can prepare you for it. If it wasn't for the fact the cast was the same, you'd think they came from two completely different shows. Hell, maybe they did. BtVS-WB and BtVS-UPN. One thing's for sure: The characters are completely and totally different between the two iterations of BtVS. I like the WB crew a whole lot more. They actually act like friends, instead of co-workers who have to put up with each other.
  
  
• Nicholas Brendon is, without a doubt, the most underrated actor in the regular cast of BtVS. I still think the closing scene of 'Entropy' is one of the best-written and best-acted Xander scenes in the entire series, period. And this is coming from someone who adores the Big Lug. (Xander...not Nicholas Brendon, just so we're clear).
  
  
• Speaking of Nicholas Brendon...on what planet was this dude considered "fat" during S6? Because even during 'Hell's Bells' the apex of Xander's "weighty-ness," when he isn't playing vision!Xander (and I notice during the vision scenes that Brendon seems to be tucking his chin inward a little to make it look like there's more flesh there than there actually is), his face is not much rounder than it was in 'The Replacement.' I'm freakin' serious. The only difference is that "Xander" seemed to be wearing three layers of clothes (when not wearing a really ill-fitting tux) with sometimes a winter coat thrown on top at all times during the S6 episodes I saw vs. the relatively light-weight clothes 'Xander' wore in S3 and S5.
  
  
• I've also decided that Allyson Hannigan is the most overrated member of that cast. Holy shit! Get beyond the cutsey-wootsey "Willow" tics, and she can't do shit or shinola. Even in 'Choices' everyone was acting rings around her and not even breaking a sweat doing it. Before this, I didn't think she got trapped in the blackhole of acting suck until the Darth Willow episodes.
  
  
• I actually kinda feel bad for James Marsters and the shit they put him and "Spike" through. On other tapes, I saw earlier iterations of Spike and I still love his bad-ass self, despite the (IMHO) utter destruction of the character in later seasons. No wonder why Marters has complained in interviews that he was never entirely sure what "Spike's" motivations were. His characterization was all over the freakin' map.
  
  
• The Mayor is still my all-time fave Big Bad. Angelus is number two.
  
  
• The Mayor was very, very right about Buffy and Angel. They're bad for each other. He's even got a list and the list I think is dead-on.
  
  
• I like Angel a hell of a lot more when he's not around Buffy. I'm not one of those people who ever disliked Angel, I just thought he was boring, especially in S3 BtVS. He seems to be a pod!Angel when he's anywhere near Sunnydale. In L.A., he's a rockin' character and I adore him.
  
  
• Going by 'Hell's Bells,' I'd think Buffy was Xander's best friend from early childhood and not Willow. Buffy is the one who's being all encouraging girl. She's the one who helps Xander get ready for his wedding. She's the one who's actually happy for him. She's the one who actually has a conversation with him. She's the one who's going to keep his parents in line. And she's the one who keeps trying to salvage the wedding while it all falls to pieces. Willow is less-than-useless and just a complete ass in this episode. Watching 'Entropy,' where she's the only person even trying to help Xander get through his issues and intevenes when Xander and Anya accidentally meet up in front of her house before there's a domestic disturbance (and I notice he's going to talk to Buffy, and not Willow, presumably about what went down between him and Anya earlier in the episode) and 'Two to Go' only just reinforces that feeling.
  
  
• Much as I enjoy Angelus, he's kinda lame in 'Cavalry.' All fang and no bite, if you get my meaning. I also suddenly realized that I don't remember Angelus actually killing anyone onscreen during S4 AtS. Compare that to the "beige Angel" period in S2 when he locked a roomful lawyers in with Darla and Dru. What makes Angelus fun in 'Cavalry' is that David Boreanaz looks like he's having a absolute blast with Angelus's little mindfucks.
  
  
• Speaking of 'Cavalry,' is it me or does Charisma Carpenter actually look pissed off through the entire episode? I'm serious. She looks really and truly pissed off and disgusted with the whole world, even when "Cordelia" is not supposed to be angry about anything.
  
  
• I remembered why I hate, hate, hate, hate S6. It's a goddamned soap opera. Every episode is angst, angst, angst, and more angst without a single light moment or quip in it. We're talking a dreary slog to get through the episodes, and that's even with fastforwarding.
  
  
• Wes really had a point in 'Choices' that trading the Box of Gavrok for Willow was a bad idea. You don't have to like it, but he definitely had a point. Something else interesting: Giles was about to agree with him when Oz destroyed the potion that would've neutralized the box, thus rendering the argument moot.
  
  
• I still think Firefly sucks the big one. Apologies to those of you who actually like it, but...nope. I have tried to watch the damn thing three times. I actually sat through the whole of 'Objects in Space.' Again. I'm still bored off my tits by its derivative little ass. I'll take my beloved Battlestar Galactica over pretend scifi Firefly every single day of the week and twice on Sunday.
  
  
• Mutant Enemy as a corporate entity is too fucking obsessed with rape. Both Angelus in 'Calvary' and and the guest bad guy in 'Objects in Space' actually both make the same exact same threat (word for word, no less!) to a female cast member: "I will rape you to death." Yeeeeaaaaaaahhhhh. Notice how neither one of these is 'Seeing Red' from S6 BtVS where there was an actually attempted rape. Let me restate my rage against ME for using the threat of rape as a plot point: Feminist. My. Ass.
  

Realizations as a result of reviewing other random tapes:

• 'Bewtiched, Bothered, and Bewildered' from S2 BtVS is never not funny. I also suddenly understand why there's a very small contingent of Dru/Xander shippers out there. Interesting. Dru under the spell remarks that Xander's face is "a poem." Wasn't Spike a poet before he got turned?
  
  
• Cordelia was a much better character in S3 AtS. What AtS writers did to Cordelia — first making her St. Cordy and then the whole S4 thing — is positively criminal.
  
  
• I've decided that "A werewolf in love" at the end of 'New Moon Rising' from BtVS S2 is a really lame line. And Seth Green's line reading kind of sucks. And I like Oz and Seth Green.
  
  
• The biggest crime of S7 BtVS is that it's boring and the production values really suck.
  
  
• Re-watching selected episodes of S7 BtVS reaffirms why I feel hella bad for Anthony Stewart Head, Nicholas Brendon, and Emma Caufield. I am now adding to the list: Sarah Michele Gellar and James Marsters. The first three because they were criminally underused. The last two because they were badly used. And it's a wonder these five actors didn't get freakin' whiplash, given the way their characters were twisted from one episode to the next.
  
  
• Allyson Hannigan reaches the height of acting suck-a-tude during BtVS S7. Whenever anyone would say a line to her, she'd actually pause each and every single time before answering them. I'm not talking sometimes. I'm talking Each. And. Every. Single. Time. Regardless of the episode. Regardless of the scene. Regardless of the actor she's working with. People bitch about Sarah Michele Gellar's acting issues in S7? Compared to Hannigan, she's freakin' Olivier.
  
  
• Andrew is still a little shit. No matter how you slice it, his character and characterization didn't make any sense whatsoever in S7. The fact he became the official on-screen "Scooby spokesperson" during S5 AtS makes even less sense.
  
  
• 'Selfless' from S7 is still one of the best episodes in the entire run of BtVS. Except now I'm bitter when I see it because not one plot point laid down in that episode had a smidge of follow-up. None. It's absolutely amazing.
  
  
• After seeing 'Him' from S7 BtVS, I've decided that I would so watch the Spike-n-Xander show, provided they snarked on each other with equal fervor and one character was not put down in favor of the other. Nicholas Brendon and James Marsters have a really good screen chemistry that was sadly overlooked.
  
  
• Speaking of 'Him,' I'm still flabbergasted that on screen and in canon they actually made Xander leaving Anya at the altar a crime equivalent to that of Spike attempting to rape Buffy. That never fails to get a "Bwuh?" out of me. A better comparison, given the nature of the conversation, would've been Adam and Spike.
  
  
• 'Potential' from S7 BtVS is a much better episode than I remembered.
  
  
• 'First Date' from S7 BtVS is a much worse episode than I remembered. Nicholas Brendon looked like he was bodily dragging stunt guest star Ashanti to actually act while he was working with her. The poor guy did everything but stand on his freakin' head to help get her over.
  
  
• Speaking of 'First Date,' I understand what the writers were trying to get across when Buffy stepped over Xander's prone and bleeding body to go check on the immortal and undusty Spike. However, it made Buffy look really bad that she didn't at least do a quick check of her very stabbed and mortal friend first before she did it.
  
  
• I hated 'Storyteller' from S7 BtVS when it first aired. I hate it even more now. It is an incredibly stupid episode that makes no sense. The mix of characters that accompany Buffy to the high school make no sense. And after 'Storyteller' is over, Andrew is right back to his annoying self, so no character growth even. That said, I thought Tom Lenk did a really good acting job. Too bad he got stuck with a shit character.
  
  
• The best part of 'Storyteller' is an "ooopsie" (I think). During the fight scene in the high school, it looks like Sarah Michele Gellar's and Nicholas Brendon's fight doubles attack Spike and Principal Wood while Buffy is terrorizing Andrew in the basement. They even had the same hairstyles and the same builds as the actors. I actually burst out laughing when I saw that.
  
  
• Daria is maybe the best television show every about the trials and tribulations of surviving high school. I can't believe the show lasted four seasons and had two movies. The movies are available on DVD. Why hasn't MTV released the series on DVD yet? Why?
  

And I still have seven more random VCR tapes to go through!

Comments

[singer-d.livejournal.com]

Most of this rates a "Hell, yeah!" from me. Except for liking "Selfless," or Tom Lenk's acting.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Fair enough on Tom Lenk's acting. I could be being too forgiving because I honestly do my best to separate actor from character.

I'm pretty sure there's an AH fan who's going to wander by and call me a doody-head for thinking that AH was pretty much the worst of the regular cast members in S7 (and I think she was the worst by a good long mile). It's no wonder Willow got pretty much sidelined after 'The Killer in Me.'

Although I'm curious why you don't like 'Selfless.' I think there are some solid reasons for not liking it (the lack of follow-up being a big one, the awful "musical interlude" being another good one). I think on the whole it's up there, but then again, S7 was such a black hole of suck, maybe it's just by comparison to the rest of the season in my mind.

[nocturnalista.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting viewpoint. I'm gonna have to get out the DVDs and watch in eclectic order. (How I spent my New Year's Eve...)

I agree with the Mayor love. He was a brilliant character start to finish.

I will NEVER understand the presence of Andrew.

BTW, I loved Firefly, but BSG is amazing.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

It's the random order on the tapes that makes it so bizarre. It's like opening presents and not knowing what to expect next.

Like I said: for a real mental whiplash, plunk in any of the BtVS-WB episodes after watch any of the BtVS-UPN episodes. It's utterly mind-blowing. The production values alone are superior on the WB version, let alone the overall acting.

On balance, the writing on S6 actually wasn't bad. I could actually see where almost all of the characters were coming from, with the sole exception of just about anything to do with Willow or Giles.

On the Willow front, the magic=crack thing came out of nowhere. The fact that Tara and Willow were apparantly living rent-free in the Summers house and not contributing financially is mindblowing in the extreme. Xander, who didn't even live there, was at least trying to help on the financial front. He did attempt some repairs (even in S6), and what he couldn't fix around the house (like plumbing), he would negotiate with people he knew to get her a discount. Why anyone thought he should be paying for Buffy's upkeep (and I heard this compaint against him) when he wasn't sponging off any of her financial resources while she was alive or dead, is beyond me.

As for Giles...pfffft. I understand ASH wanted to leave. But the reasons ME gave and then never explained were completely out-of-character from the BtVS-WB Giles.

The key to S6 (IMHO) take off the ship-blinders and the character-hate blinders. Once you do that, it's a reasonable extrapolation of the fallout for dealing with Buffy being dead and then raising her from the dead.

The execution of the season arc and the overall plots were bad. And you can certainly quibble with the tarring of the Scoobs, but I certainly don't think Spike was made to look good by comparison at all. I think that was mostly on the chat boards where that happened. Looking textually at the show itself, I don't see it.

S7, on the other hand, just sucks through and through.

[thirdgorchbro.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love Buffy-themed rants. Random responses:

About halfway through the Angelus arc on Ats Season 4 I became convinced it was actually Angel pretending to be Angelus, as part of some crafty plan that would be revealed later on. I thought the fact that he wasn't killing human beings (and he doesn't, not one single human the whole three or four episodes) was a subtle hint. Clearly, I was giving the writers too much credit.

WB-era BtVS and UPN-era BtVS are definitely different shows. The Scoobies post-Gift are hollow shadows of their former selves. I still love some parts of Season 6 (and Selfless in Season 7), though. I'm easy.

On a related note, bad acting or no, I love Willow up until the magic=drugs copout in Season 6. Every evil thing she did was IMO an organic growth out the character. The less said about pod-Willow in Season 7, the better.

It’s funny how my disappointment with a lot of the direction the show took in its last few seasons really colored my perceptions of this season when I was watching it as it aired. I actually hated Buffy after I saw First Date, for the whole stepping over bleeding Xander thing. But upon second viewing, I realized that’s not exactly what happens. Buffy is standing right next to Spike when she kills the cat-demon chick, and bends down to check on him (and do the obligatory significant gaze into each other’s eyes) before running over to Xander. Of course, this doesn’t lessen my disappointment that Xander was once again utilized as the butt monkey convenient plot device in this episode, and that the only point of that scene is so that Robin can realize that Spike and Buffy have a thing. But it’s interesting (or maybe not) that my memory of the scene is so different from the reality, considering how much of an effect it had on my opinion of Buffy.

With distance, I too have a lot of sympathy for SMG and JM, and for their characters, too. I remembered why I loved Buffy so much in the very last episode of Angel, Not Fade Away, when we see Anne, still doing everything in her power to help the helpless and fight the good fight. And she does it because of Buffy's example. Not a bad legacy, IMO.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Okay, now I have to dig the tape with 'First Date' out of the trash and re-watch that scene again because obviously my memory is off. To be fair, I saw the episode 23 hours and six tapes ago.

What makes 'First Date' really interesting (and not in a good way), is that SMG, JM, NB, and D.B. Woodside (Principal Wood) all do an excellent acting job in this.

And then there's...Ashanti. Holy. Mother. Of. God.

NB did practically heroic acting in his scenes with her and was pouring on the charm as much as he could, only to get this dead-eyed, dead-voiced line reading out of her. It was completely insane to watch. Let's leave out the big freakin' plot hole about how our guest demon got "Xander" anywhere near the high school basement, considering "Xander" knew what was down there. And how the hell did he text Willow for help when he was already tied up and hanging over the seal? That's just bad editing.

In truth, during the run of S7, I actually had a lot of sympathy for SMG. She did most of her dead-eyed acting with angry arms when she was onscreen with AH (and given Ms. Pause-a-Lot's just stellar acting job, I don't blame her at all) and a little bit with JM, especially at the beginning (although I think part of it was she was trying to get across Buffy's discomfort with post-attempted rape and newly souled Spike). She also started doing it when she was forced to give speech after speech when it became clear that her request for a return to Shiny!Happy!Buffy! wasn't going to come true. Compare her acting in 'Him' vs. her acting in 'Potential.' It's like day and night. She just looks weary as all hell in 'Potential.'

JM I feel bad for now that I've had distance and have read some interviews with him. I can't blame him for being frustrated with S6 and S7, despite the fact that the BtVS writers were doing their level best to make Spike the most sympathetic character in both seasons. The problem is, in S7, Spike was practically a pathetic cat toy for the First Evil through most of the season and Buffy's pathetic lap dog through all of it. Hell, if I were an actor who saw my charismatic, bad-ass character turn into that, I'd be going out of my mind, too. It's really funny, but JM has recently come out and said that he made so many suggestions for Spike in S4 that he almost got canned. I also don't blame him for putting a deadline on JW for any Spike movie that's going to be made, insisting that Spike should stay a vampire instead of getting the shanshu, and demanding that Spike be the center of any movie that has Spike as a character. I've been wondering why he's been laying down all these demands, in public no less. Upon re-watching my selected S6 and S7 tapes, I can completely understand where he's coming from.

Besides, I almost think the mythical Spike movie will never be made at this point, no matter how hard JW dangles it in front of fans. JM seems to be less and less interested in doing it (he went so far as to say that there isn't even an idea for it, let alone a script). And JW seems to be throwing himself into a ton of projects that has zero to do with making a Spike movie. He's even under contract with Dark Horse to do a virtual S8 BtVS in 2006 or 2007. On top of his movie commitments, JW isn't going to even be available for a Spike movie for at least 18 months. At least.

I'm with you on the evil!Willow thing for S6. Before the cop-out, I thought it was a natural outgrowth of her character. Then they did the magic=drugs thing and Willow as a character was shot all to hell.

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

Everything in s7 comes down to bad production values, I think- there are only three episodes (Beneath Me, Selfless, and Conversations with Dead People) which don't look as if any time every actor in the scene got their lines down was the final take, no matter how bad the reading. No freaking directorial judgement at all.

And you are so very right about Daria, which is the most underrated program in recent history, as far as I'm concerned.

Julia, the Fashion Club explains so much about high school

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Hideous production values.

And, yeah. I kind of noticed that not all the actors seemed to even know which script they were reading from at certain points. For example, early in 'Potential,' NB seemed uncharacteristically off (as in very off), like he'd only managed to glance at the requisite pages before he was shoved in front of the camera. It's an insane contrast to his performance at the end of the episode when he hits a homerun without even breaking a sweat. Then again, NB was working heavily off of AH in the earlier scene, who I don't think was "on" for the entire season, if the episodes I saw are any judge.

And the girls playing the Potentials. Were they even trying? Most of them were just terrible. The girl who played Cho Ahn was especially beyond awful.

The thing that really stands out to me in both S6 and S7 (especially S7) is the piss-poor editing. I used to work for Avid Technologies and dealt with a ton of film and video editors while I was there. The final cuts were just awful, especially since they left holes in the plot. The shooting scripts in at least half the cases actually had the material that covered the plot holes, but for whatever reason, they were left on the cutting room floor. Usually it was nothing more than a line or a short scene that would've eaten seconds, yet without that...Poof! Plot hole.

I'm not crazy about Spike, but seeing these random episodes in random order was a great way to see how Spike as a character got jerked around from one episode to the next for two entire seasons. No wonder why JM had a hell of a time figuring out Spike's motivation half the time.

It just seems that Spike as a character was yanked from one extreme (Spike's the only one who understands her!) in one episode and then swung to the opposite extreme (Spike's a little obsessive asshole who's only out for number one!) in the next. That was just out-and-out bad writing. Suddenly, JM's recent interviews bemoaning his frustration with S6 and S7 BtVS makes oodles of sense.

Ahhhh, but on to more pleasant subjects...Daria. What I really loved about that show is that the parents weren't always in the wrong and Daria wasn't always right. *floves*

[invisionary.livejournal.com]

I almost always like your rants, even when I disagree with them. And I do disagree with quite a bit here. But nonetheless, a very entertaining read - thanks!

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Disagreeing is okay! :-)

Being impolite and flaming while disagreeing? Not okay.

Opinions are all good.

I have feeling that a lot of people are going to disagree with me on the Firefly and or Spike front (given my FList), which is prefectly cool.

[nemo-gravis.livejournal.com]

Loved this :)

All the actors were either underused or poorly used in places throghout the show, which was sad. Also sad that BTVS is still so addictive so they'll always be tied to it in some ways no matter what they do.

What was the reason for the thing if First Date though? (Honest question) I'm just too wrapped up in myself to be able to get a clear handle on that. I remember Buffy sorta stepped over Xander, went to check on Spike, did the meaningful eyes thing and then she turned back to make sure Xander was okay, but I never saw anything more to it that a "head up her arse" moment and so I sorta try to stear clear of ever mentioning it.

What was the writer's logic?

[nemo-gravis.livejournal.com]

the thing if First Date
Damn typos. The thing in First Date.

Oh, and I'm not trying to start a discussion, I just want to pick your brain on that because my own can't think straight :)

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Okay, you're wrong on Firefly. I mean, wrong in general (Pah! to differing opinions, I say), but Jubal Early and Angelus don't use the same language at all. Angelus uses the "rape you to death" line (which is, btw, similar to a line from Zoe in the very first episode re: Reavers), whereas Early says that if Kaylee tries anything, "your body is forfeit." Early is much classier, if no less of a sociopath.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I've been told I'm dead wrong about Firefly before, so it doesn't even bother me at this point (heh!). I've got friends who are SciFi fans who adore it, and I've got friends who are SciFi fans who are in my "don't get the big deal" camp.

I get along with both. :-)

The only time I've ever gotten annoyed with someone with a differing Firefly opinion is when they decided that there was something obviously wrong with me for not liking Firefly (extreme Browncoats, like extreme Trekkies, can be hideously protective of "their show" and don't take kindly to people who don't agree).

The thing is, I've tried. I've really, really tried to like it. As I said, I've tried to watch the series three times at this point. If it hasn't grown on me, it's never going to take.

I admit that I may have misheard Jubal's line. I think I was so startled that I saw back-to-back episodes where rape was used as a threat against a female character that I may have in my memory superimposed Angelus's line over Jubal's. All I know is that I practically fell off the couch when I heard the threat. I had forgotten that line in 'Reavers' (it's been awhile since I've seen it). I've got to admit, four examples of the "rape threat" across three shows from the same production company has me going WtF?

Even though I spent most of 'Objects in Space' absolutely bored, I do love me some Richard Brooks. A fine, fine actor who somehow got lost after he left Law & Order. I pretty much stopped watching regularly after he was gone.

RE: your dislike for firefly.

[(Anonymous)]

Is the primary reason you dislike firefly because you feel it is mostly derivative of btvs?

Because I like firefly a lot, but I have never actually *watched* btvs.

So maybe it *is* derivative, and I just don't know it.

As for it being pretend-scifi, I would definately say it is not hard-sci-fi like BSG, or Babylon 5 for that matter. I would however say it is at least as sci-fi as say star trek.

But keep ranting, most of them are very educational.

Note: I would describe myself as a diehard scifi fan. And I have the books from larry niven, jerry pournelle, heinlein, et all to prove it.

Re: your dislike for firefly.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

So have I, on the scifi front. :-)

Actually, I think Firefly is derivative of anime, other scifi shows (hell, the original Battlestar Galactica already had horses and cowboys and outlaws in space back in 1977), and westerns.

I'm not saying people shouldn't like Firefly. I'm just saying that I don't like it and that it bores me to tears. It's my personal taste, and nothing more.

Although, I will admit, most of the characters in Firefly can be directly correlated to characters on BtVS as well. The difference between Xander and Wash, for example, is razor thin.

[stoptocheer.livejournal.com]

My flatmate's big complaint about Firefly is that the characters sound exactly like Buffy characters, and not like real people. (He complains about the same thing with Joss's Astonishing X-Men, too.)

Man, Nick Brendon was underrated. Seriously, a big 'word' to this whole post.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

My brother completely has that bitch about Whedon's version of the X-Men, and he liked BtVS and AtS.

The thing is, Joss Whedon is a talented dialogue writer (I have far less faith in his ability to pull off long-term arcs without someone like David Greenwalt working with him). However, all his dialogue is starting to look/sound the same the more work he puts out there.

[spiralleds.livejournal.com]

How Andrew got basically front burner status during Season 7 sets my teeth on edge. I enjoy him far more in fic, probably because there's room enough in fanfic for all characters to get their 15 minutes. And enjoying the fic helps me tolerate the character in canon. But with the finite airtime they had to work with? Give me my regulars, thank you very much. Especially because I can't believe they didn't have a clue it might be the last season.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I'm very much with you. Although I admit that my irritation with Andrew extends to the Potentials.

I mean, I want to see the characters I spent six years watching to not only recover from S6 (most of them didn't), but to see how this portion of their lives end and how they move on. Wrap up the characters we know, please don't introduce new characters because you're desperate for a spin-off and please don't over-focus on your shiny new toys. It's annoying.

I'm still floored that Andrew got his own episode. The closest Xander got was 'First Date,' and he was the B-plot. That said, Xander's role in early S7 is a hell of a lot bigger than people tend to remember. He really didn't start getting sidelined until 'Conversations with Dead People,' where he didn't even merit his own plot.

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed reading this. Because I'm bad with episode titles, I had to go look up episodes to figure out which ones you meant sometimes, but that was part of the fun.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Heh. Glad you enjoyed.

[mara-sho.livejournal.com]

I remember just after watching Hell's Bells I posted this whole big ranty essay type thing to some Yahoo Groups which I thought I had archived on one of my sites but I can't spot it right now. My basic points were along the lines of not knowing who that red head was whose 'heart hurt' for the blonde who up until that episode she'd actively hated and put down at every opportunity, and who completely blanked on her childhood friend. Hell's Bells was the point where I lost any lingering connection I had to Willow.

Totally with you on Aly Hannigan's acting ability running out past the cutesy tics, she had something back in the day but then it all seemed to vanish into idiosyncracies which just became annoying. Have you seen her as Trina in Veronica Mars by the way? She's trying to play a Cordelia-esque character and when she was in the same scene with Charisma Carpenter she looked positively wooden. (Sorry AH fans, but watch that VM episode again, CC acts rings around her without even trying).

Also on Hell's Bells re: Xander's weight issues, wasn't there some talk that NB may have been wearing a 'fat-suit' under that tux? Yes, there was the whole deal that it was meant to be badly-fitting to highlight the working class 'can't afford a proper tux' route (which I personally found insulting but hey, that's my issues!) but giving him one *that* badly fitting which made him look *that* much bulkier instantly? I still don't get that.

Now you've put me in mind to go watch earlier episodes again, just to remember why I love the show in the first place. Maybe something from the season three ouevre... *g*

[the-jackalope.livejournal.com]

Totally with you on Aly Hannigan's acting ability running out past the cutesy tics, she had something back in the day but then it all seemed to vanish into idiosyncracies which just became annoying. Have you seen her as Trina in Veronica Mars by the way? She's trying to play a Cordelia-esque character and when she was in the same scene with Charisma Carpenter she looked positively wooden. (Sorry AH fans, but watch that VM episode again, CC acts rings around her without even trying).

Yes, I was going to mention that, and it is so true. In fact she's pretty wooden around the rest of the VM Cast.

[xattix.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on almost all of the points. I think that the only reason I kept watching during s6 and s7 was for a sense of closure, because the plot was horrible and I just wanted to smack Buffy, Willow and Spike because they were getting so annoying.

There were several good episodes, like "Selfless" and "Storyteller", but , like you pointed out, everything went back to the way it was in the next episode.

Plus, the whole killing off potentials thing was already tried by, of all people SPIKE and Dru in "Pretty Maids all in a Row". Joss should have either stopped Chris Golden from writing the story if he knew that was how he wanted to end the series, or he should have found a different plot.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I was pretty much watching for Xander and Giles because they were the only characters where I wanted to see what would happen. That, and I was hoping like hell they'd both get out alive.

Wasn't Pretty Maids written during S3 or S4 on BtVS? I think it's more likely that Joss Whedon had zero plans to get into the Potential thing back then. And if he did...well the way it was pulled off in S7 means he's got zero excuse.

Comments About Your Comments

[keith5by5.livejournal.com]

I agree Brendon is the most under-rated actor in the series. I get why people say Alexis is the best, and I agree, I also get why they say Borenaz is the best although I disagree. He's not only the most under-rated, he's the most under-utilised. But Lenk supporters? Alexis and Nick could do his confused nerd act ten times better with their eyes closed and standing on their heads.

I jump between the Mayor and Angelus (although I prefer the mind-fuck Angelus does from the cage and his fight scene with Faith to anything Buffy based) as my favourite.

Yep, the Mayor was 100% right.

Ditto with the Angel comment. In Sunnydale he was just Spike without the arrogance and with remorse (ie. in it just for Buffy). In LA. he became an actual believer.

Disagree 100% on Cavlary. For me it was the best ever Angelus ep, Borenaz was totally Hannibal Lectar.

S6 sucked almost as much as Firefly. But not as much as S7.

Actually ME are more obessed with power (see their usage of non-powered chars) than rape. Rape just being an expression of power.

B, B & B is my fav Buffy ep ever. I never understand why there are human\vampire shippers full stop (except Buffy\Spike shippers, I can get behind that ship, that way Angel and Xander are free from Buffy's grasp and any other woman in Buffyverse is free from Spike).

Cordelia? Don't get pregnant when working for ME. Another expression of power.

I don't see why anyone says SMG's char was badly used. It was just a rewrite of S2 Buffy with Spike in Angel\Angelus' role. The difference is a far less effective bad and less storylines for the more likable chars, that's all.

Potential has Xander and Dawn's talk (the best moment in the entire season), that's all.



Yep on the Andrew. Andrew's not funny, Wes and Xander were far more amusing geeks early. Andrew's basically Spike-lite, an unremorseful, self-absorbed murderer. And he's one of Whedon's fav chars. Says it all.

Re: Comments About Your Comments

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely re Andrew - we got about ten seconds of remorse from him in the whole of S7, and that was when he thought he was about to die. He did redeem himself a little by fighting in the final battle - though I would have greatly preferred Anya to have lived, not him. Incidentally, Anya does have some magical abilities, WTF didn't they give her a spell of some sort to cast instead of just putting a sword in her hand and leaving her to die?

If we need a reason for sending Andrew to W&H in Damage, the only one I can come up with is that he was expendable, and a good enough liar to keep Angel thinking he was in control until the Slayers were ready to move in.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

peaking of Nicholas Brendon...on what planet was this dude considered "fat" during S6?

S6 was the time when everybody got wide-screen televisions but BtVS was still broadcast in the old-fashioned narrow screen format. So the narrow image was stretched across a wide screeen, making everyone look much fatter than they really were. The rest of the cast are so freaking thin that this just made them look like normal human beings, whereas Nick is a normal human being and therefore looked fat.

When I got the DVDs in widescreen format and watched them with the show in the proper ratio I was shocked. I thought that there must be something wrong, because there was this hideous stick insect pretending to be Buffy, and I checked the aspect ratio and the relative length and height of objects with a known shape such as cars. There was nothing wrong. Sarah Michelle Gellar really had turned into a hideous stick insect. Spike was scrawny. Anya had arms like pipe-cleaners and a chest as flat as an ironing board. Nick looked perfectly normal.

It is, however, much easier in fanfic to write as if the majority is normal and to refer to Xander putting on weight, rather than to come up with an explanation for all the other characters - human and vampire - all developing anorexia. Which they did.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

This is the same company that managed to make tiny Amber Benson look "fat" through hideous costuming. Then again, normal Amber Benson's size 6 thigh was bigger than SMG's entire body. I remember watching 'The Body' with the two of them sitting side by side thinking: "Either SMG is skeletal or AB is a chubby girl." (SMG seems to have put on weight post-BtVS and she's looking good.)

What's funny is that in 'The Replacement,' when you stand NB and Marc Blucas side-by-side, they have the exact same build. Blucas has a few inches on NB height wise, and they had NB dressed in jeans that were like two size two large, but the two of them standing next to each other with NB dressed in a reasonably well-fitted T-shirt? Holy crap!

It's no wonder why NB was practically hulking over the entire cast towards the end of the series, even when they were allowing "Xander" to be "fitter" by dressing him in clothes that actually fit. I was floored during "Selfless" when they had NB wearing decent clothes at the beginning, because I figured he must've dropped a ton of weight between eps. Then by the end of "Selfless" they had him dressing bulky again and looking like the beginning was all illusion.

Body-wise, costuming didn't do NB or Amber Benson any favors whatsoever.

[nikomaria.livejournal.com]

And what I realized while reading your post - is that haven't watched a Buffy ep since the end of season. And you know what the first 5 seasons, I remember the titles and what the ep is about. But seasons 6 and 7 ... most eps I have to look up what it was about, and then I remember and I get all bitter again. So yeah still no desire to re watch the last two seasons. But I might watch some old episodes again one of these days. :)

But yeah I agree with everything you wrote and esp. with


I still think Firefly sucks the big one. Apologies to those of you who actually like it, but...nope. I have tried to watch the damn thing three times. I actually sat through the whole of 'Objects in Space.' Again. I'm still bored off my tits by its derivative little ass. I'll take my beloved Battlestar Galactica over pretend scifi Firefly every single day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It's good to know that I'm not the only one that just can't get into Firefly - I tried again and again but I just can't ... bored, bored, bored.

And yeah I take Battlestar Galactica over it any day too - the old and esp. the new. :)

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

There's a few of us willing to admit it outloud here on LJ. Not many, but some of us.

When the movie came out, I made the mistake of saying that I had zero desire to see it. In a journal entry. *rolls eyes*

Seriously though, Firefly just doesn't happen to be my cuppa. It says less-than-zero about me, actually, since I think most of my scifi and genre tastes would tend to overlap with your average Firefly fan's about 90% of the time.

It's really the hard-core browncoats that are the problem, just like any other hardcore fangroup. *shrug*

[bluegreensmoke.livejournal.com]

Another opportunity to proclaim the suckitude of Storyteller and do the "Die Andrew, Die" chant? I'm totally there.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

We should have a rap song, at the very least.

Torches. Pitchforks. If I didn't read how much all the writers loved Tom Lenk, I had hopes that the never-to-be-filed AtS S6 would unveiled Andrew as a stone-cold liar trying to take down the Watcher's Council from within.

That would've been the only way to make it up to me.

[4thdixiechick.livejournal.com]

Whoa. I cannot add anything new, so I'll just say "word!"

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Wheeeeeee! It was cleansing to write.

[set-aka-ian.livejournal.com]

Random thoughts on random thoughts;

About the stunt-doubles; I remember reading a recap of the ep where Spike lures Buffy to the basement and a bunch of his minions attack her, and Ace/Sep/Sars/whomever is like, "And Buffy stakes her stunt double, and then Nick Brendon's stunt double tackles her..."

Storyteller pretty much sums up a huge problem with the show in general (and the character of Willow in particular), a total lack of character growth. Buffy can say, 'I'll show you the world,' and Dawn can act mature at the end of an episode, and Xander can look all resolved to get things right with Anya at the end of Goodbye Iowa, and Willow can throw her fuzzy sweaters to the ground in disgust during The Body, but by the very next episode, they are right back to ground zero.

Andrew, like Willow, *could* have eventually grown up. So could Amy, or Jonathan, or Dawn, but they all remained 'stuck' in the same static unchanging state, which, in Andrew, Willow and Dawn's cases particularly, meant the maturity and sense of responsibility and ability to deal with difficult choices of a freaking four-year old. On Angel, we get to see Wesley 'grow up' from the shrieking fop he was in Buffy season three, to become a practical hardass willing to make hard decisions. In Buffy, nobody ever got to grow up, save by leaving the show for a better-written spin-off.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I read an interview with Michelle Trachenberg a few months ago (it was the one where she basically said she'd never reprise the role of Dawn again) and her huuuuge complaint was that every year she got older but Dawn got younger.

My big complaint about Amy in S6 is that she didn't make a whole lot of sense. And her de-ratting was a little lame. Sure, she was starting to follow in Mommy's footsteps in S2, but to go from someone trying to manipulate her way into a better life to a drug addict? It was mystifying.

The bitter, angry Amy of S7 made a whole lot more sense to me. She may have been a little unfair about Willow not working hard enough on her de-ratting, although given how easily did it in S6, I can see why she'd think Willow didn't work hard enough. But her acusation that Willow pulled some downright evil crap and got a free pass from her budies while anyone else would pay for it was dead-on.

It's funny, but before re-watching the episodes in random order this week, I didn't have the Willow-hate that some people had while S6 and S7 was airing. Watching the ranom episodes even as far back as S2, I can suddenly see why a significant subset of people started turning against the character. It seems that Willow, more than even Spike (who at least was turned into damsel-in-distress for the first half of S7, constantly tortured, and had to be constantly rescued), never really paid for anything she did wrong. Instead we got mouth-breathing infantile Willow for two whole seasons.

*bangs head*

[charliesmum.livejournal.com]

While I enjoyed Andrew as a character, I think he was really out of place. Why not Jonathan if they needed a new Xander? I loved Jonathan, and he was in the series from the first, if I remember correctly.

I think James Marsters is an amazing actor, and I think that's the problem. The man has bags of chrisma, is a fantastic actor, and they wanted to use that but didn't know where to go. They basically changed the entire Buffy-Vampire mythos to fit him in, and that hurt the show, I think. You can't have Angel go totally mean just because he doesn't have his soul, and have Spike, chip or no, do nice things for love, even soulless.

When they made Buffy die, they really killed it. I liked the whole 'sucked from heaven' thing, but after awhile I couldn't stand the whining.

And I suck at the titles as well, so I'm not sure which ones you were referencing at times. I'm one of those 'you know, that one, with the guy who had the thing?' type of episode titler.

And yes, Nicholas Brandon deserves his own series. I chose "Kitchen Confidential" over "How I Met Your Mother" because I think he is a far better actor than AH. So naturally that show is cancelled. Sigh.

One thing about Buffy, though. Each season had at least one episode that transended mere television and became actual art, I think.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

I think the key difference between JM and NB on the acting front that JM has admitted that he "sabotaged" the writers by playing Spike as sympathetic, which the writers picked up on and started writing to it. NB played within the boundries of what he was told to play as the character was written, even when his character was written to be an ass, and got no love from the writers or a lot of fans for it.

It's interesting to note that since then, JM has said that if he had to do it all over again, he would've played Spike as less sympathetic if he knew Spike was going to get a soul. I give him props for seeing that there was a serious disconnect between pre- and post-soul spike vs. Angelus and Angel.

After seeing 'The Replacement,' I can far more easily see NB in a drama than a comedy. Granted, I thought he did a great job with Seth (especially his near hysterical ranting in the last aired episode), but I also think he's missing the boat on his talents if he stick with the sitcom route. Hopefully he'll land in a decent drama series that earns him the attention he really deserves next time around.

As for landing the lead role in anything, I don't see that happening for NB any time soon. His last few years on BtVS didn't do his career any long-term favors.

[bigsciencybrain.livejournal.com]

Mostly 'word' here. :)

I do have more sympathy for the writers in S6, and particularly S7, after finishing my uber plot monster. I think I know exactly what happened. Your plot goes to hell, your characters slip through your fingers, and no matter how you try, the only way out completely sucks. I feel their pain. Don't get me wrong, I hate S7 with the passion of a thousand firey suns and if I weren't so OCD about complete DVD collections, I wouldn't have bought it. Him makes me laugh like crazy but there is so much crap it's just not worth the space on my shelf.

As for Firefly...I've seen Objects in Space so many times that I can tell you where the sound effect cues here. So, yeah, I'm a fan. But I wasn't when it aired. It completely turned me off when it was actually on TV and I came into it much later with much skepticism. And I've never seen Battlestar Galactica so I don't have that standard to hold it up to. One of the things that I liked about Firefly from a sci-fi POV is that it's around 500 yrs in the future and people are still people. They're still stupid and petty and greedy and all but the very wealthy are carving a living out of nothing. I like that. I hate sci-fi with fancy ships roaming the galaxy like benevolent travelling gods (sorry to the Trekkies here) because it never suspends reality for me. I simply don't have enough faith in our species to believe that.

I also was bored, bored, bored during the first season of Veronica Mars and was disgusted by all the squeeing about it. This season bored me too up until episode 6 or 7 and then all of the sudden something clicked. It has become crack and "I am its whore". LOL

Of course, I just finished a Firefly/Chronicles of Riddick fic...so here's a big grain of salt. :)

OCD and DVD sets

[xxmagex.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that my OCD isn't strong enough to overcome my dislike/hate/annoyance/disgust at seasons 6 & 7. Stopped my DVD collection at season 5 BTvs and season 2 AtS

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

S6-7 suck. S6 sucks for me because it wasn't what I wanted to see, though I can appreciate what they were trying to do, S7 just plain old sucks! It's pretty much the one thing Buffy fans can agree on. :)

As for S7 AH suckitude, I'm not sure if her pauses and akwardness wasn't called for in the script, since on Angel she wasn't like that at all.

Bottom line, S7 shows you what happens when writers get tired of what they're working on. Xander could have been better used, but he was nothing but an emotional crutch for Buffy and S6-7 were all about depressed miserable Buffy, no crutches allowed.

Giles leaving with good reason wouldn't have helped the general "Men, aw hell, people, suck!"

So, pretty much Word! :)

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

Agree with a lot of what you said, disagree with some other stuff.

I have a million and one issues with season 7, starting with what the hell did The First want? I never had a clue. Or the clues kept changing. My other big problem is we had no entry into Buffy's thoughts. I have a pretty good idea based on past behavior (I think she was scared shitless and convinced she was going to lead everybody to their deaths) but because of that, many people are convinced that she was a bitch who didn't care about anyone. I find that sudden 180 degree turn around in attitude hard to by, but that fact that some many believe leads me to a charge of poor writing.

Spike. I could write an essay on Spike (and have in the past.) Suffice to say that up through the end of season 6, one of Spike's defining traits is his complete obsession with his current female object and his belief that he knows exactly what she needs and desires (which is him). There is nothing the least romantic about building an underwear shrine. Sadly, many in the fandom and among the staff of ME didn't see it that way.

[rubywisp.livejournal.com]

I haven't got anything to add, but I love this post. Can't wait to see what you come up with after further viewing. *g*

[lostakasha.livejournal.com]

Wow...I have so much to say in reply, but I'm on the verge of printing out this post and watching in the same order as you did....hmmm.

A few immediate reactions:

The Mayor is still my all-time fave Big Bad. The Mayor still sets the standard for pure evil. Once in a while you'll catch a glimpse of that brilliance in Holland Manners, too.

Angelus in Cavalry: horrid, horrid, horrid. Didn't frighten me in the least. In fact, I blame Boreanaz (whom I love and adore, by the way) and the director for allowing the "Shatnerization" of Angelus. Give me the snarky Eternity Angelus any day -- he's menacing, at least.

Mutant Enemy as a corporate entity is too fucking obsessed with rape. Without question. (Disclaimer:I found the Angelus 'rape you to death' remark fitting to the character, but I've always thought of it as sanitized for television because 'fuck you to death' would be so much more Angelus.)
The entire 'attempted rape' of Buffy by Spike, and the attendant comment by Joss Whedon about Spike no longer being allowed the priveledge of a sexual relationship with her after that to be disingenuous and insulting after the bullshit of S6. (That's a post all by itself.)

I actually kinda feel bad for James Marsters and the shit they put him and "Spike" through. The sanctifying of Spike is some of the worst television ever, IMO. (That's on a par with Cordy's character assassination, which is unforgivable.) Worse yet was gradually amping up the "St. Spike" angle on AtS S5, although at least there was an attempt to keep the emnity between Angel and Spike alive, and to keep some of Spike's bad boy/dumb blonde edge that worked so well in early BTVS.

Oh...and I'm sure this has been said many times, many ways, but: Cookie Dough?!!! I've rarely been so insulted. Oh, wait. Forgot about The Girl in Question.

For me, BTVS is some of the best and worst television ever created, and to keep the most jewelled moments alive we have to survive -- or at least not obsess too much on -- the lackluster crap. And write what should have been ;-}