liz_marcs | Friends-only so I can vent...

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Friends-only so I can vent...

I hate sounding ungrateful about FB. I really do. I'm very grateful when people do give FB even if I don't always get to responding to everything. Sometimes it's hard to come up with a good response...

Anyway, on my test list I have someone who always tries to impose what THEY think Living History should be about. Generally their points of view on the characters, motivations, and direction are so alien that I have to wonder what story they think they're reading because I'm pretty sure it's not mine. It seems I'm constantly repeating myself going, "No, no. Where are you getting this?"

Because it's impossible that Dawn could ever, ever like Willow because of that whole magic addiction bullshit. And Buffy doesn't give a shit about anything beyond herself and her super-powered boyfriends. That Kennedy is all about power and trophy powerful girlfriends. That Willow is only about powerful people. That Xander will never be considered important by anyone (this from a Xander fan!). That Faith has nothing but contempt for Xander and will never like him in "that way." And dontchya know? Faith and Xander are doomed to nothing but a loveless relationship so why am I bothering? Xander will always know he comes dead last in the pecking order because he's with people who only love POWERZ!!!!111!!!!

GAHHAHHH!

My favorite is the insistance that I explain more about Catherine and Company's plight so they can be "sympathetic." Wuzzat? Hunh? Why? The problems they've got 834 years in the future is the story's internal reasoning for why they're there in the first place. You have been told all you need to know about their problem. You really don't need more for purposes of the plot. And I think Catherine and Company are sympathetic enough because they've got to deal with all their beliefs being smashed right in front of their beady little eyes. I have great sympathy for Catherine given everything she's found out.

How many times to I have to explain that the plot for Living History is pretty simple...simple enough to sum up in one line: 'People from the future travel to the past to ask the Scoobs for help and wackiness ensues.'

The whole point of the story is how these visitors affect (or not affect) the present-day. They are relevant only insofar as that point exists. Note that you never see Catherine or her people unless they're interacting with people from the present or talking about people from the present. It's all about the present-day Scoobs. The future people get closure only insofar as it deals with the that singular point.

*bangs head*

Plus, some of the FB I've gotten in private email has really given me pause. Part of the problem is that there's still residual S6 and S7 BtVS bitterness floating around out there to the extent that in some quarters writing a likeable anyone is deemed OOC.

Goddamn ME! I swear to god the more I think about S6 and S7, the more it puts me in mind of character-bashing fics where Buffy, Willow, and Giles were bashed to the point of non-recognition. We had the introduction of Mary Sue (Robin) filling all the BtVS conventions FOR a Mary Sue. We have painting everyone in tar (Scoobs) just so one character can look good by comparison (Spike more often than not). We had strawmen set-ups just so Buffy could be right by writers' fiat. We had senseless, useless violence and sex put on our screens just for shock value...

Jesus, when it's all said and done, Xander is the only one who got out of BtVS the least singed and that's only because of rampant neglect. I only remain grateful that when mentioned post-BtVS, his fate is just about the best one of the Scoobs. The tar brush against Giles for refusing to help Angel in his hour of Fred-need; the tar-brush against Buffy for several reasons....jeez! And I know ME was trying to cool-up Andrew but even that seems to have failed miserably as the Andrew-hate has notched to new heights.

Thanks a whole fucking lot ME! I'm writing the Scoobs as likeable, but because they're likeable they're OOC for S6 and S7 according to some people!

I like writing my little ideal versions of the Scoobies (as screwed up as they are even in my ideal versions) where it is possible for them to stumble back into something resembling a real friendship. I like the fact I'm writing a story that Xander is important not because he shoots lightening out of his ass but for those characteristics (good and bad) that make him uniquely Xander.

But I've had people email me questions like:

Question: So when's Xander going to show up Buffy to drive home she's a terrible leader?

Answer: He's not. He's learning good leadership skills. Buffy's remembering her good leadership skills. The two are not mutually exclusive nor do they have to come into conflict.

Question: So, when's Robin going to be killed because he's clearly the bad guy?

Answer: He's not. And he's not the bad guy. He just fundamentally disagrees with Xander on a lot of issues. He's the protagonist simply because you're seeing the whole story from outside his point of view. Protagonist is different than bad guy.

Question: So when's Robin going to turn out to be evil and wrong?

Answer: He's not! Just because Xander doesn't like him doesn't mean he's evil! And just because his thinking runs counter to Xander's on a lot of issues doesn't mean he's wrong either! He's right about some tings and he's has a good point about almost everything. Hell, some FB in the earlier scene where Xander and Robin were sparring, a couple of people pointed out to me that they agreed with Robin 100% and that the section could be construed in some quarters as bashy against Xander and if it wasn't me who wrote it, they'd think it *was* meant to be that way.

I've worked damn hard to steer very clear of character-bashing or anything that could even come close to being considered character-bashing, even if I didn't like the characters in question. I've worked damn hard to show that everyone has a very good points (well, I admit except for Andrew, but even he manages to do good things). At the opposite end, I've worked very hard not to Mary Sue anyone either. Xander and Faith may be the "heroes" but even they've been shown to be shallow and petty in their own ways. Catherine's temper is her huge failing, as is her curiosity. And no one in her crew can even come close to being termed saints. The thing is, I don't expect people to love every character but I'm more than a little disturbed when they want a disliked character to "pay" for being unlikeable.

Maybe that's why I just can't get on board the Buffy-bashing I've seen in so many fics. It's cold comfort that Buffy-bashing fics are outnumbering the Xander-bashing fics. Now that I think about it, I haven't seen or heard about a Xander-bashing fic in awhile now. (Thank god!)

Question: We better be seeing Faith and Xander getting it on before the end of the story otherwise I'll be upset.

Answer: They're not. This is about burying the hatchet and learning to re-evaluate someone. It's groundwork people. It's about reaching out and being surprised about what's really there. No hip-thrusting because it just doesn't fit in the story!

*bangs head* Is there something wrong with me? Is it wrong for me to want to like these characters? I don't get it...

So, ummm, thanks for letting me vent.

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It's not just you. I get this crap all the time. In all of my ongoing stories I'm getting feedback on these lines mostly from fanfiction (spit) net. Here are just a few of the comments I got on one story - spoilers for Family Issues follow:

just what did Billie [Willow's long-lost aunt in this story] mean that she was afraid that she was going to have to betray her niece?

That she was about to betray her? Which she does...

Holtz needs to get his head examined if he really thinks he can use Willow to get to Angel, considering that she's much more likely to take him apart than he is.

Angel is killed in the next character. By Willow's aunt, who was the person being manipulated...

I KNEW IT! I KNEW you couldn't trust xxxxx and his associates! Now, there WILL be hell to pay! Angel's associates and the Slayer and Spike are going to come after them AND MAKE THEM PAY!

Well, if Willow, Tara, Wes, Fred, Cordelia, a souped-up version of April, Billie (now helping), possibly Lorne, and an OC with a silly amount of power can't handle the situation already, why are Buffy and Spike going to miraculously put things right? They're not going to be in the story until it's all over, bozo...

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea. There are a lot of people out there who can't think of a way to comment on a story without trying to back-seat drive. I'm probably doing it myself occasionally, though I try not to.

I don't *mind* when people back-seat drive in the form of suggestions or guesses about what's going to happen next. It's actually a lot of fun and I don't have a problem with it.

But when you've got the same people or person doing it constantly based on their own prejudices as opposed to the textual content, that's when it drives me around the bend. And when back-seat driving is in the form of a demand...*GAH!*

Plus, you have people who want a real black and white situation and aren't interested in trying to look closer. I don't know if it's because of the "it's just fanfiction" mindset, because I'm willing to bet that they don't approach a book they'd buy in a bookstore that way.

It's frustrating. Most people who write fanfic usually want to put out the best story they can for their own and for readers' enjoyment. But you have a subset of readers who approach it (for lack of a better term) like it's amateur hour and they treat the writers like that.

I don't get it. If you don't like the story, why are you reading it?

First, just because what they say is negative, doesn't mean they don't like the story. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there it is.

One of the things that happens with art is that it is perceived differently by different people. A lot of times, people will discover what they want to be there instead of what is actually there; think about Atty. Gen. Ashcroft covering the statue of Justice in the DoJ building as a particularly noteworthy (not to mention silly) example of the kind of conflicting interpretations people can bring to a single work of art. It seems to me that you're frustrated by others not seeing what you put there (and seeing what you didn't). That's really the nature of letting your art out into the world.

And, by the way, thank you for doing that. I know it's made my life richer, and given me the courage to start working on my own fan-fiction.

Some FF.net feedback is valid and good. For

wisteria_'s birthday, I wrote a fic about a memory-reading, body-sucking demon kudzu that attacked Buffy and brought her post-S7 self back to S5(or S2?) Spike. It was a fun piece, but since it was all about Buffy and her relationship with Spike, and the only characters were Buffy, "Spike" and another victim, I could't put in exposition explaining that, and I got FF.net feedback saying that she was confused. Half the point was confusion, and I couldn't straighten things out within the confines of the story. The criticism was valid.

But not everything that comes out of there is that true.

What I like about your story is that the characters *deal* with their issues, to some degree or another. (Choosing not to deal is also a way of dealing, right?)

They're beginning to find back to the characters they were *before* it all happened, while growing into being adults at the same time.

Hey! To quote Into the Woods, not deciding is a form of deciding. And one of Xander's key faults is when something he doesn't want to deal with comes up, he tries to avoid dealing with it.

Heh. It's actually a fault all of them have to an extent, but for some reason, Xander's the only one who's ever been called to task for doing it.

Aww, I'm sorry they're doing that.

Isn't the whole point of fanfic to enjoy the characters and enjoy the story, regardless of what happened on the show? I'm glad you're trying to resolve things that weren't resolved on the show, and that you seem to be really enjoying the characters as well as allowing others to enjoy them.

Some people just need to let. it. go.

Amen.

It took me a couple of months after "Chosen" to realize just how much I hate the way ME has treated Buffy as a character in the final two seasons of BtVS and in the final season of AtS.

It really, really drives me wild when people decide to buy into that characterization and wash their hands of Buffy.

It's kind of sad how many people are discovering their Xander-lurve because of the comparisons between Giles, Buffy, and to a larger extent, Andrew.

...some people just don't know how to interpret a text. People 1) read too quickly and miss stuff that should have hit them between the eyes; 2) bring their own prejudices to a work; and/or 3) lack the maturity to make a plausible interpretation of a text. I mean, not getting the difference between a character who's eeeviiil and one who is merely in conflict with one of the other characters? Cheese louise!

As a former student of lit crit, my professional judgment is that Living History kicks ass.

Thanks for all around. I have no problem with people reading subtext into things. I have no problem with people finding subtext that I didn't intend. But it's when the statements are coming from Mars that I kind of get taken aback and wonder what they're actually reading.

I have to admit that the FB I'm getting here is a lot of the reason why I'm actually taking the idea seriously of trying to get original fiction published. I just have to figure out the beginning baby steps of how to put together a proposal and find an agent. Plot bunnies I have out the ass...getting from computer to book not so much.

But I do wonder if published fiction writers read their reviews and want to scream because they've been misunderstood.

As another Literature degree-holder, I must concur. The story is solid, the characters are real -- as opposed to the charicatures some readers seem to desire -- and the plot never overtakes the story. It's great.

The one thing that I've always disliked about Buffy as a series is the whole good vs. evil aspect of it. Characters are either one or another. There's no room for moral ambiguity -- the closest they got to that was season five Spike, and that was quickly dropped in favor of Spike As Written By Fabio. You've added a moral ambiguity to the characters, a lack of surety over what is right and wrong, and it finally gives the characters the depth they had back during the second season. It's great.

It's about taking the broken pieces of what we loved so much and playing with them. Believably taking them back to how they were when we first fell in love with the characters. But with new cool added stuff! (well, some of it)

It's not about power. It's about doing the right thing.

See, I agree. But some people don't want to see that. That's probably why I'm not crazy about Xander-gets-a-power-remembers-his-kwel-soldier-memories-still-plays-with-hyena stories.

I gotta FB your new one by the one. That take on The Girl in Question had me in stitches! And poor, poor Scoobs. Illyria's little lie really did screw the pooch for everyone.

I've never really gotten the point of Xander-with-powers. His entire purpose through the whole series is to show that even ordinary people can do the extraordinary. Well, that and comic relief.

OK, that, comic relief, and a way to make sure that they had a way for Buffy's house to get fixed between episodes.

Anyway, some of those stories are well done (I especially like the ones where he goes as a Jedi for Halloween. . .) but they just don't "feel right," if you see what I mean.

Argh. Pushy readers there.

If they're so eager to have people jump in the sack, well, no one's stopping them from writing their own.

*sniffle* Thank you.

I hate bitching about FB...but sometimes you get pushed over the edge when one or two people keep hammering at you.

BtW, what the hell happened with your nomination at Walk With Heroes?!?!

What I really want to know about LH, is what's up with the seemingly random words in bold.

Thanks a whole fucking lot ME! I'm writing the Scoobs as likeable, but because they're likeable they're OOC for S6 and S7 according to some people!

That's a legit problem. And it's a legacy of bad writing. ME couldn't do nuance, and there were a lot of cases where the writers tried to stack the deck in order to cover up for that.

So people start to miss out on some key points:

1. Buffy is not, inherently, a bad leader. IMHO, she is a fairly decent leader, who underperformed in large part because she was overstressed, clinically depressed, and because her condition was misdiagnosed and mistreated by the people most in a position to help her. (Buffy included)

2. People can disagree on matters of policy and implementation without being "evil" or "enemies". Sometimes, taking two people that disagree on policy, and having them work together and compromise to find a consensus a large number of people can live with, is a very good thing.

That was a great response. I pretty much concur on all points.

I like writing my little ideal versions of the Scoobies (as screwed up as they are even in my ideal versions) where it is possible for them to stumble back into something resembling a real friendship. I like the fact I'm writing a story that Xander is important not because he shoots lightening out of his ass but for those characteristics (good and bad) that make him uniquely Xander.

Good comment there. Big part of the reason it works for me.

First, I like Buffy. I like her in all her incarnations, so please don't take this as Buffy-bashing. What I'm going for is a a statement of an area of weakness in her character, not a blanket condemnation.

Buffy is not a good leader, and I don't see her exerting good leadership at any point in the series. That doesn't mean she's a bad person, just that she never learned the skills that make a good leader - she never needed to until the final season, and she never had the chance.

Buffy was always a lone warrior, but she ended up with a coterie of friends who followed her out of love, not because she had a particular talent for leading. In fact, I think that in the early episodes Giles was more the leader than Buffy. When Buffy did lead, it was largely by her force of personality and the already formed relationship (and power) hierarchy in the Scoobies. Neither her "pack leader" role as Slayer, nor her personal experiences (in her relationships or in employment) had ever given her the skills she needed to lead effectively.

When it came time for her to put together a larger group with the potentials, she tried to force them into the existing group structure without considering whether that structure was appropriate for the larger numbers she was now dealing with. She delegated poorly, and was at best an inconsistent tactician, though I think that was largely because she was inexperienced at dealing with a well-organized opponent. Note that in season seven she was most successful when operating on her own (recoverng the Scythe, killing Caleb, even the fight with the first Ubervamp) and not as part of a group. I think that subtlety was deliberate, and largely overlooked - the final season was at least partly about the solitary nature of the Slayer and how that nature didn't work so well as part of an organization.

It's not bashing at all. Buffy, in S7, was a terrible leader. And it's not helped that Willow, Xander, and Giles are also shown to be poor lieutenants.

Giles was more frequently the facilitator, but the group was always drawn together and driven by Buffy's vision, and IMHO, not just her personal charisma. In the earlier seasons, she seems to show some leadership traits beyond just her Slayer Power. She could develop plans, incorporating input from multiple sources, delegate responsibilities (including decisionmaking roles), and she could be inclusive and conduct outreach to her "team". Buffy, in the Battle Plan scene of "Graduation Day 2", is a good model of leadership.

We differ on this I guess. To me, S7 didn't expose her as lacking in leadership ability - although yes, she can be a cowboy. Rather, I think it exposed how she'd lost touch with what had made people willing to follow her in the first place. (And it wasn't just because she was pretty, or the slayer.)

the final season was at least partly about the solitary nature of the Slayer and how that nature didn't work so well as part of an organization.

That's universal. We all have solitary natures. We also have social natures. I don't see why the Slayer, having been made aware of the possibility, can't adapt and work well as part of an organization. Indeed, I think their future success hinges on it. As to S7, I don't know how much is subtlety, and how much is just incoherence. It's hard to draw lessons on the nature of leadership and collaborative effort when the document we're looking at, itself, is such evidence of poor leadership and quality control.

fwiw, I'm seriously in awe of the way you're handling the large cast in Living History, with such fairness and compassion for and clear-eyed recognition of all the characters. I love the conflict between Xander and Robin, especially, since it's so clear that neither one of them is bad. They both mean well, but they are just coming from two completely different points of view, and just not equipped to understand each other. Good guys, but personalities like oil and water.

Up until late in Buffy's run, there wasn't a single character on Buffy that I hated. Not really even any that I disliked, and that's amazing for a TV show with such a large and fluid cast.

The damage done by the ME writers in S6-7 is really very sad. I think the Angel writers tried to patch up some of the holes, take closer looks at and make richer some of the plot points that were carelessly glossed over in Buffy S7 (such as the controversial Slayer-empowering spell, and Spike's soul)... but at the same time perpetuated some of the other bad things (as you mention, Giles and Willow refusing to help, and, well, Andrew).

I completely understand your frustration with such feedback -- and how such feedback can, um, feed back into increased frustration with the way Buffy ended.

And yes, the fact that Xander seems to have escaped the tar brush actually makes me rather... glad... that he was neglected. And who ever would have thought that I'd think that?

Bunch of things I'd like to say, if I may. When I started reading your story way back when, I enjoyed how you set up the whole post-Sunnydale thing. I especially liked how many of the personalities were seen through the eyes of the future people, and the way you developed that. I thought maybe Robin was going to go all big bad because of the things Cathrine and co thought, but later it was apparent it was because she saw him through the eyes of her family history, i.e. Xander, who didn't like Robin. It's an amazingly complex story. And I also appreciate the fact you are, in some small way, repairing the damage done by ME in seasons 6 & 7. For awhile there, in the beginning of season 7 it seemed like they were going to bring everyone back to the scoobies we knew and loved, but then they decided to end the show, and everything went all pear shaped, in my opinion. So thanks for giving them back to us.

I think I liked Xander best since The Zeppo. He showed himself he could be a hero, and he didn't need to let everyone else know it. I think he totally grew up in that ep. Giving him cold feet on his wedding day really pissed me off.

Okay. Done now. Keep writing! Thanks.

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Friends-only so I can vent...

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Why read it?

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No, you're not crazy...

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No, Buffy's not a leader

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