liz_marcs | Borders-verse flashbacks: Gor

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Borders-verse flashbacks: Gor

So here I am multi-tasking. Working on The Last Tin Soldier (beta notes have resulted in some changes all the way to the very end), checking out the Deep Space Nine episodes I can watch for free online at TV-Links, and checking my FList before toddling off to bed.

So, here I am, riding the kind of high that I can only get by basking in the awesome that is Kira Nerys, when I spy with my little eye from theantijoss_on_IJ that Gor of Losers is making a comeback.

Thanks to Dark Horse.

My irony meter just went off the scale.

Not to mention that I now have whiplash. From Kira to Gor. I need a frigging neck brace.

I tried to read a Gor book. Once. In junior high. (Although I'm very sure that if my dad knew, he would've had a heart attack. No. Make that a zillion heart-attacks.) I'm pretty sure that Gor pretty much planted my aversion-to-writing-smut seed. That shit was just ugly, yo. Me not a big fan of slave games, even consensual slave games. Although if it floats your boat, go and float, says I. Just don't make me wear the ball-gag and nipple clamps and we're cool.

But even with my relatively innocent eyes, I could damn well spot a rape fantasy. Rape fantasies in and of themselves aren't bad, per se (even if it gets my squick running so hard that my knee starts jerking, if you get my drift). But this was a rape fantasy of a whole 'nother color. This was a rape fantasy for men. It's the really, really ugly shit where all women want it, all women deserve it, and all women will get it in the end. Failure to accept rape as a way of life is a brutal death sentence.

Why?

Because "no" ain't an option for women in Gor-world. Not when they're branded. Not someone chunks a slave collar on them. Not when they get assigned the role of "pleasure" slave, "reserve (virgin)" slave, or "scut work (not sexually attractive)" slave. Not when they get chained to a stone floor because they try to say no. Not ever.

Quick question kiddies: What's the difference between someone who's free, and someone who's a slave?

Answer: It's one word. "No." The power to say it. The power to think it. The power to act on it. One. Word.

Hunh. Guess the Gor books were edumacational after all. Who says the series is a total waste?

Well, actually, I do. Not even Dianetics comes close in the worthless books sweepstakes.

I remember my Bordersverse days rather fondly. I remember most of the customers rather fondly. I remember most of my co-workers rather fondly.

Know what I don't remember fondly? This one regular customer. He was a white male, always impeccably dressed in semi-expensive clothes. Glasses. Loafers. Sandy hair bordering on brown. About my age, more or less. Clean-cut. He looked like the type of guy who was involved in community service, or volunteering for some political organization or another.

Shit. I remember exactly how he looked, despite the distance of some years.

I also remember that he had this vibe. Long before I ever talked to him, I got the "something is just not right with that boy" radio signals so loud that my one tooth filling rattled every time he walked through the door. Straight ladies, gay men...I don't have to explain that whole serial-killer-in-disguise vibe to you, do I? I'm sure you've all had it once or twice. It's a feeling you don't forget. For the rest of you who don't know, the best way to explain it is as if someone's shadow just passed over your grave.

Anyway, I'd seen him around off and on for several months (and I always made it a habit to be elsewhere when he was looking for help). One day I didn't move fast enough and he got me.

Guess what our boy was looking for?

If you didn't say Gor books, then you haven't been paying attention.

Right. Needless to say, my brain went to DefCon 1 so fast that it's a wonder the word "tilt" show up on my eyeballs. Having no choice, however, I had to help Gor-man. A quick look into the database showed that we actually had a copy of the first book around (how, I don't know since they were out of print for a looooong time by that point). It wasn't in science fiction (Thank God!), but in erotica.

But that's not the real creepy part. The real creepy part is that Gor-man was talking about that damn book and how philosophical it was and how deep it was and shit like that. And he was asking my opinion about it.

Holy tomato, I thought to myself. Is this dude actually feeling me out about Gor?

Indeed he was. To be honest, I don't think he was hitting on me. I think he was on a little power trip. Obviously he saw my reaction when he asked for Gor, so I suspected that this guy — who towered over me by a good 6 inches — was trying to rattle my cage.

All he got for his trouble was my serene bookstore look: the one perfected over several years and honed in the fires of born-again customers trying to convert me to the Gospel according to Tim LaHaye, teenagers sneaking into the erotica section, and little kids running rampant in the children's section.

It's a look that's somewhat mask-like, coolly polite, vaguely condescending, and gives the cusomter abso-fraggin'-lutely nothing for their trouble.

Nothing pisses off a power-tripping customer more than that cool, polite wall of hell. They can't get over it, can't get around it, and can't dig under it. Hell, they can't even complain to the store manager about it. In short, they have nuffing! Once that mask is on, you will win power battle every. single. time. Plus, you get the joy of seeing a power-tripping customer go completely out of his or her tree.

Anyway, in the end, I advised Gor-man that if he wanted other books in the series, he'd have to trawl used bookstores, as almost the entire series was out of print. In fact, I expressed polite puzzlement that we had the first book in the series at all, while he expressed shock and horror that it was in the erotica section and not the science fiction section where, in his humble opinion, it belonged.

I saw Gor-man after that, of course (he was, after all, a regular). But he never asked me to help him out again. I did ring him up a few times though. His taste in reading material did nothing to dispel the kree-pee.

Anyway, if you want to be completely creeped out before bed, I highly recommend 7 year-old article from Salon about Gor enthusiasts recreating the series for real. The article is old enough that it's not tucked behind Salon's usual wall o' ads. It's totally free for the reading.

And per theantijoss_on_IJ, check out what Girl Wonder has to say about the Gor revival. Tamorah Pierce has a few choice words, too. Bellatrys_on_LJ has a whole collection of posts on Gor (scroll down to get to the really good, hard-core analysis of Gor).

In the meantime, I'll be hoping like hell that Dark Horse loses oodles of money and earns a ton of bad publicity for trying to revive Gor.

Now I must cleanse my mind. Yeeeessss. I think I will watch the 'Crossover' episode of Deep Space Nine. Evil Kira in leather. It doesn't get any better than that.

X-posted to IJ, GJ, and JF

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See, I would write it, but I'd have to read them first. Ick.
I could offer um, Dragoncon swag?

Yes, I'm aware that the manga's author is a woman. That's not the point. And I'm aware that the teacher "doesn't respond." That's not the point either.

The point is that the story's main character is an eight-year-old cocktease who is *actively trying to get an adult to have sex with her.*

This is problematic to me.

Think of it this way. What if this were a comic published by some conservative Christian group, and the main character is a child who is constantly trying to provoke their parent into beating them with a belt. The parent is soooo embarrassed by the thought of beating the child, because what would the other parents think? But the whole point of the story is about how this kid really, really, really *wants* to be physically abused. Oh, and sometimes, even though the parent doesn't *want* to, their hand "accidentally" slips and they smack their kid. Hah, physical abuse is so full of "lulz." What a great comic. Surely no one could ever pick up any harmful ideas from it.

Would you argue "But the parent doesn't ever actually beat the child!?"

Or would you be able to see that some people might take the obvious lesson from the story: "Children need/want to be beaten, and when they act in a certain way, they are doing it on purpose because they *want* to be beaten." Even if it never happens in the story, *that's the message*.

The problem is that if an adult male looks at an eight-year-old-- and let's say she falls over and flashes her panties, the way the main character of Nymphet/KnoJ tends to do. And that adult thinks to himself, "She's doing that on purpose, to get me hot," that's creepy enough *as it is*, to imagine that an eight-year-old could actually trying to seduce an adult male in full understanding of what that means. When we're talking about a fictional character-- it doesn't matter whether or not he then "resists" her "advances." It's bizarre enough to have established, in the fictional universe, that an eight-year-old is actually capable of making advances.

I can't imagine not finding Nymphet/KnoJ creepy on those grounds. To me, reading a series where a child really *wants* to be molested is no different from reading a series where women really *want* to be raped, or black people really *want* to be enslaved, or where people over 65 really *want* to be euthanized for the good of everyone, and oh, it's certainly not *my* fault for doing it, they *wanted* it! They were totally asking for it!

"But he never actually molests her" would be a good defense in real life, if we were talking about a real life teacher dealing with a real life sexy child who was trying to get in his pants. But the difference is that in real life, there are no cute, happy, sexy little eight-year-olds running around actively trying to entrap adult males into having sex with them. (And if there are, the right response is not "gosh, how embarrassing! I'll stand here and blush a lot" but "Child psychologist, ASAP, and can we find out something about this kid's home life, because something isn't right here."

But Nymphet/KnoJ is a story that purposely establishes its main character as a sexy little eight-year-old cocktease, and gosh there's just *nothing* that the teacher can *do* about it except stand there and *take* it, over and over and over again. There's more than a little hint of "oh, no, Bre'r Bear, please don't throw me in the briar patch! I'd just *hate* it if you threw me in the briar patch. No, seriously, no! Oh, I'm really hating this! So much!! Let's do it again in the next issue."

Gag me.

Something else to consider:
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/youthrights/sex/instigation.php

I read that before I posted, actually. I didn't find it convincing. Yes, people under eighteen have sexual desires and urges. (Gasp, shock!)

That doesn't mean I think it's awesome to write a cute, lulz-worthy manga about a sexy little panty-flashing eight-year-old who really, really wants to be molested.

I have a feeling the people who are comparing this manga to "Lolita" have actually never read "Lolita." The whole damn point of "Lolita" is that HH is deluded; he looks at Lolita and sees a temptress, actively trying to seduce him, but she's *not actually*-- that's just what he tells himself so that he can feel morally justified in having sex with her. "Lolita" treats the subject of underage sexuality seriously. Not for "lulz."

At this point I think we are going to agree to disagree on this subject.

"Damnit, I can't get past the crappy writing!"

Why aren't there more publishers like that? *g*

scary/sadly enough there are people who try to "live" the life of Gor in real life.
I've met several who "own" slaves and keep them in cages, and treat them just like the women from the books.

John Norman and Hubbard should go bowling together, since they both wrote up fantasy books people try to live by. ick

Eight. Years. OLD.

The case cited in the article you posted mentioned a FIFTEEN YEAR old girl. Do girls that age have sexual fantasies? Oh heck yeah -- anyone who's had a male substitute teacher can just watch the hormones go kerblooie. Do EIGHT YEAR-OLDS have sexual fantasies? NO. No percolating hormones, no development of certain areas...nothing. If they have nothing by which to collect data for their fantasies, the fantasy doesn't happen -- imaginations simply does not occur in a vacuum. Curious I'll give you, but curious is a far cry from sexual aggression.

The idea that someone that young can be a sexual aggressor is straight out of a MANBLA minutes meaning.

Clearly, objection is simply just ‘western Christian ethics’ in play and can be dismissed out of hand immediately. Clearly, sexualizing children is something the whole of Japan, who in their infinite wisdom is always right, believes. Clearly, this cannot be a twisted well advertised minority in Japan’s population who is generally despised by everyone else in the country who has to live with them.

Don’t allow your Japanophilia to misplace common sense here.

I've said all I needed or wanted to about this topic.

The episode of MST3K wherein they roast the movie "Outlaw", based on the book Outlaw of Gor, is pretty freakin' hilarious, however. It's got Jack Palance in it!

I think about to join you in being a total stranger giving TMI, but this whole entire discussion is bring back memories for me, some good, some bad.

Back in the day I was on the Grey Archives, cesspool of the net circa 1999. A group of them, including me, on there did adult RPG's DnD style with play by post. This group moved around a little before settling on RPOL, Roleplay Online, in the adult section.

During these time, my ex, who was the main GM, tried to start a Gor-inspired world and campaign settings. None of us had heard of it before the game let alone read it except the GM, one woman, and her husband. Three times the game was started and all three times it failed because all the regular women players couldn't even fake being that submissive, or the males that had joined the game just because it was Gorean/barb fantasy didn't like tables being turned when one incarnation we added male slaves along with veiled freewomen to give more variation in character choices. This more equal incarnation ran the longest until my freewoman put a guy in his place in the bedroom and squicked most of the male players.

The only female player that did pull being a slave girl off was the one that had read the books before and dealt with it by faking the submissiveness in writing while snarking to other in IM as she wrote her posts on how her character strung along the poor male she got partnered with by being passive-aggressive with so many veiled underlying meanings in her word choice.

I broke up with the GM eventually and the games always failed, but that isn't the point. The point is that a pseudo-slave culture where the emphasis is on sex is still a standard male fantasy even if it is totally Gor. The concept can be turned to the opposite by women as well. There's so many slave yaoi boy stories out there it isn't funny, and most of them are by women. I've even thought of reviving the ideas of that game and turning it into a more fair world in regards to both sexes with an emphasis on who actually holds the power in such a relationship.

It isn't the idea that's inherently bad, but, like anything else, it's the ones that take it too far that give off that vibe.

Dark horse brought us the "Star Wars: Dark Empire" series. You were expecting quality work from them?

Though, I must say, this new development brings Dark horse down to rock bottom on my list of publishing companies, below even Jefferson Mills (which is a craptastic publishing company which is as low as you can get on teh customer satisfaction scale), and only barely above Llewelyn (which treats some of it's authors almost as badly as it's customers... and there no honest way of putting it other than to say that Llewelyn blatantly cheats many of it's customers.)

Hi, hi

This conversation is fascinating and as an enthusiast of dom/ noncon stories it is of particular interest but really I just wanted to give you a 'big ups' for the Deep Space 9 love and the Browncoat love. "Burn the land and boil the sea. You can't take the sky from me."

Does Norman actually advocate that people live that way though?

Hubbard's far worse in my book. His Pseudo-religion has engaged in so much Fraud, Harassment, and Filing of frivolous lawsuits that even the IRS was intimidated away from investigating them. Any organization that can bully the IRS is way too damn influential for comfort. Especially an organization that runs a friggin' slave-ship in international waters.

The vast majority of eight year old probably do not have "sexual fantasies".

However this does not mean that children are completely oblivious to sexuality. Most won't know in any firm sense what sex is about, but kids, especially young ones are quite aware of their bodies, and not terribly shamed to express their curiosity over those funky parts of anatomy or to ask about the gender roles they see expressed in day to day interactions between people.

Sexuality is a very basic biological thing, and is present before puberty. Just not to the extent of a 8 year old trying to screw her teacher. Unless, someone close to her is modeling such behavior for her to copy- an older sibling or parent who is a shameless flirt. Without that, an 8 year old acting that way is highly implausible.

sorry I didnt reply sooner- Ive been mid move from Florida to San Antonio.

for a time, after the books popularity, rumor has it Norman did actually "promote" people to live the lifestyle if they wanted too do so. how much of that is true I dont know.

as for the Scientology clut I've been a advocate against them for the last 10 years, especially after I moved to Clearwater and dealt with them on a more personal level there.

the sad thing is the whole basis of Scientology was a joke between Hubbard, Asminov and Ellison during a cocktail party, Hubbard just took something Asminov took too far to reality.

You probably won't see this, since this is an old thread. I'll clear up a few of your questions. Earth cultures had a counterpart on Gor because the aliens that created Gor brought people from different cultures from Earth to Gor, during their Voyages of Acquisition. Eskimos, Vikings or Indians were actually Eskimos, Vikings or Indians transplanted from Earth. Why would they NOT have a similar culture?

Oh, and about the racist thing. It's obvious why Tarl Cabot only slept with white women while he was in the jungle. John Norman probably thought it was a bit too much for a white man to own or rape a black woman who was a slave in chains. He was trying to AVOID being labeled a racist.

LJ doesn't care about dates; it emails you replies to all posts and comments :-)

Umm, I take your point about the transfer of cultures but you have to allow for changes and there weren't any; no evolution of the culture, just a stereotypical mirroring.

And I really, really don't see that last bit being the case but YMMV.

The series sold millions of copies, was translated into several languages, and made into two movies.

The first four books were pretty much standard sword and sandal. It was only after these that the female slavery themes began to dominate.

Actually made any money *now*, is what i mean. I can't imagine them raking it in this time around.

Few will admit it.

First, let me explain something. I read about half of the Gor novels when I was younger, mostly out of order and over a period of years. Not too long ago I came across all the novels, so I figured I'd read the whole series in order.

The cultures didn't change because the aliens in charge prevented them from changing. There were rules spelled out detailing what people could and could not do. For instance, they couldn't experiment with improvements on weapons or transportation. Violators were killed. Also, keep in mind that this IS fiction, so it's possible from a fictional standpoint.

Also, I think the last bit is true. I read "Explorers of Gor" not too long ago. Norman was very careful that NO white person owned a black person. If he was actually racist, I would think that his protagonist wouldn't have sex with ANY other race, but that isn't true. Tarl Cabot owned and had sex with Indians, Asians, Arabs, Eskimos, and many others.

Oh, by the way, thanks for answering.

Sorry, I misunderstood. You're right, they won't make much money this time around. Most bookstores probably won't carry them, and it's a lot cheaper to buy used paperbacks from a used bookstore.

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Borders-verse flashbacks: Gor

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Read My Lips

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Re: Read My Lips

Just as an aside...

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publishers

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Hubbard

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Dull and racist

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They actually did make money.

Why was it disgusting?

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Millions of people read them.

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Re: They actually did make money.