liz_marcs: Jeff and Annie in Trobed's bathroom during Remedial Chaos Theory (Gunn_Bitch_Please)
liz_marcs ([personal profile] liz_marcs) wrote2007-08-05 03:26 pm

Here Are My Thots...Let Me Show You Them

While the latest LJ kerfluffle is going in full-swing, let me make clear my stance here, especially since there seems to me to be a certain amount of misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Personally, I think the artists in question who got perma-banned from LJ were, to put it kindly, stupid.

Yeah. I said it. They were stupid.

For creating their art (even though...yeah...not to my taste at all)? No.

For posting it on an unlocked (at the time) pornish_pixes? Questionable. Depends on whether such pieces were acceptable in the past. Depends on whether the artists warned the images were not work-safe. Depends on whether they've been dinged before by 6A/LJ for content. God knows, it still wasn't smart, but whether their posting the work in question was foolish or stupid depends on a lot of factors.

Here's where the stupid comes in:

Given the ruckus that has been continually kicked up on LJ since Memorial Day, and given the fact that there have been plenty of people (inside fandom and outside fandom) complaining that LJ/6A has not been clear about what they are and are not willing to host even when directly asked by their customers (that would be us, by the way), posting the actual artwork in an unlocked community where there was even a question or doubt that could enter into the minds of Our Corporate Overlords at 6A/LJ was stupid.

At the very least, wait until it became clear what 6A/LJ's "standards" are and how those standards are going to be enforced. Or at least host the potentially objectionable art on another service and provide a link with warning that the images weren't worksafe. That would've been the smart way to go about it.

The fact is (and this is a hard fact) "Freedom of Speech" does not come into play here. Such provisions in those countries that have them are only meant to stop the government from infringing on the rights of its citizens to speak out. Even then, it can be abridged within reason (the "falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater" test) — although in the U.S. we have increasingly seen it abridged outside of reason, but that's an argument for another day.

6A/LJ is, like it or not, private property. Our Corporate Overlords (be they 6A/LJ or some other blogging/journaling service) have the right to decide what they will and will not host on their servers. They also have the right to refuse service to potential customers they don't want. They also have the right to decide how their existing customers may and may not use the service they provide. Furthermore, they have to do it in accordance with the rules and regulations and laws not just in the U.S., but also within the state of California (where the servers are located). I guaran-fucking-tee you that those rules and regulations and laws are a hell of a lot more restrictive than any First Amendment (and, as it turns out, a few European and Asian countries).

Here's my actual problem with 6A/LJ:

Bad customer service.

No, seriously. There it is.

All of my other side problems pretty much stem from that one sentence, including:

  • Suddenly permanently suspending journals without warning to the owners and without a more thorough investigation that complaints from outside parties (i.e., vigilante groups like Perverted Justice and Warriors for Innocence) during the Great LJ Strikeout of 2007 over Memorial Day weekend were actually legit

  • Speaking to the press about the Great LJ Strikeout of 2007 before deigning to make a single post in any of LJ's many, many corporate communications communities like LJ News or LJ Biz explaining the whys and hows of the debacle to its customer base

  • Releasing on the new ToS on the eve of the Permanent Account Sale where they were asking $150 from customers — glossing over the fact that people who paid could get their journals yanked at any time without recourse or a refund should LJ/6A decide they don't want to host that journal any more

  • Back-pedaling in the comments of the post where the new ToS was announced when people pushed for clarification on certain items, up to and including:
    — What was the "additional content" outside of the "Miller Test" that 6A/LJ was not willing to host?
    — What, exactly, were LJ/6A's standards for objectionable content? (People were reduced to asking for examples.)
    — Would LJ suspend/delete/ban someone without notice, or would journal owners at least get some warning?
    — In what way could an LJ/6A customer go about appealing a decision should a journal get suspended or deleted?
    — Can people with suspended or deleted journals get a refund on their unused time (in the case of paying customers)? How about people with permanent accounts?

  • None of these questions listed above, by the way, received a direct or truthful answer, despite repeated requests for clarification. The answers were invariably, "Well, the ToS says this, but we really mean this." Or, "We don't interpret the ToS this way." Or we got reassurances that our tin hats were wound too tight. Or...or...or...  No one (well, no one reasonable) was demanding that LJ/6A not have a ToS. Not too many people were even asking for change. They wanted clarification because no one is a mind-reader and no one really wants to step over some arbitrary invisible line. Clear rules and clear guidelines, I don't think, are too much to ask for. Some people thought things were clarified. Some people (me included) thought the waters got a hell of a lot more muddied by the answers.
Given the uncertainty of the situation with respect to LJ/6A's standards (whatever the hell those are because I'm still not clear), a reasonable person might think that a little caution was in order here.

My perception that the artists in question acted stupidly, however, is nothing compared to what I currently think about LJ/6A.

Both artists (to my knowledge) never received any previous warning about objectionable content. As far as I'm aware, neither one of them even got targeted during the Great LJ Strikeout of 2007. They never crossed LJ Abuse's radar, as far as I know. So it seems to me that their punishment (remember, both artists were banned for life without prior warning from getting a new LJ account) was arbitrary and heavy-handed.

A reasonable action (assuming LJ/6A wanted the images off the servers right away), would be to suspend the accounts and email the artists asking them to remove the objectionable content. If the artists agreed to it, unsuspend the journals and give the artists X-number of hours to remove the objectionable content or (at the very least) have LJ Abuse delete the objectionable content before restoring the journals.

Even with the unreasonable action LJ/6A took, at the very least give the artists some way to appeal LJ/6A's decision, especially if they didn't have a history of problems with LJ Abuse.

Or, failing that, refund the money those artists paid for journals (if the journals were paid accounts) and prorate that refund to take into account the time the artists had used vs. the time they were banned from LJ. To my knowledge, the artists were not offered any sort of refund for their unused time.

Deleting a journal without at least some kind of warning or for a way to let the journal owner retrieve the content or without a right of appeal or without a refund (in the case of paid journals) isn't just unfair, but it's sucky customer service. People pay for the service in one form or another and they do have a right to the content they've generated. What LJ/6A did with respect to the two artists is a form of stealing.

That's right. Stealing. From your customer base.

How smart is that? Let's just say it's beyond stupid verging on single-digit IQ points. Because I guaran-fucking-tee you (again) that quite a few people looked at the case of the two artists and thought, "Shit. That could be me." 

The minute that thought crops up, regardless of whether you yourself generate content that's questionable (and everyone has generated, in one form or another, at least some content that could get them in hot water on either a legal or professional or personal level), it ceases to really matter. Hell, it doesn't even really matter that the artists generated content that got them banned for life without warning from LJ or generated content that you personally found objectionable or even that you thought they were stupid for pushing it while the lines were so blurred.

The fact is, it could happen to you because now LJ/6A has shown that they can (and will) delete your journal (your content) without giving you any warning or any recourse at all. And they won't refund your money, either, when they do.

Here's the thing: you get a journal, you're entering into a contract that obliges both parties (Corporate Overlord and Customer) to abide by a certain set of rules. Those rules should be spelled out clearly so both parties can abide by them and to ensure that an even hand is applied in enforcing those rules. LJ/6A's assurances (especially in light of their recent actions) coupled with the new ToS had too many loopholes, too many problems, and too much arbitrary factors built-in. It was enough to make even someone like me take a step back and wonder what was out of bounds and what wasn't.

Thus far, LJ/6A has remained uncommunicative and unresponsive to the concerns of its customers. The statements made by LJ/6A employees on how the ToS would be enforced has been confusing (at best) and contradictory (at worst). Its arbitrary actions (up to and including removal of the distinctive strikeout from the code and replacing it with mere bolding for suspended and deleted journal accounts) to keep hidden how they are applying the ToS and who they were applying it to is maddening, especially if you prefer to keep things above-board.

People seem to forget: we are LJ/6A's customers and we are its content providers. As customers, some of us provide additional income (similar to someone subscribing to magazine or newspaper) by either buying a subscription for a set amount of time or hosting the ads.  As content providers, we attract eyeballs to the site and we also give advertisers key demographic information so they can more accurately serve their ads to a potentially receptive audience. 

Now, you would think, that it would be in LJ/6A's interests to remember the above points. Without an established user base or a good population of active journals, they have nothing to sell to advertisers and their ability to attract new customers is hampered. You would think that any business plan would take that into account (unless 6A wants to kill LJ...but I honestly don't think they do).

However, LJ/6A continues to treat us (the customers) with contempt, or like we were drama queens with entitlement issues. To be fair, some people are acting like drama queens with entitlement issues, but it's not good customer service for LJ/6A to lump everyone into the same drama queen category. It's really bad customer service to act like that's the case. It's horrendous customer service to not respond to questions and repeated requests for clarification or to respond with vague statements that could be interpreted any number of ways.

And then to arbitrarily act (regardless of your thoughts on the artists in question or the pieces that got them banned from LJ) without warning to even the journal holders themselves...well, that's quite a bit beyond bad customer service, don't you think?

It practically guarantees that at least a percentage of people who didn't think LJ/6A was entirely in the wrong with respect to its actions against to the two artists are going to get very pissed off with the way LJ/6A are have handled the mess from the get-go.

Pissed-off customers have a nasty habit of biting the corporate hand.

And then they take their business elsewhere.

[identity profile] justhuman.livejournal.com 2007-08-05 10:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said although I haven't read enough details to know how old the posts were and if they were locked or unlocked -- I had heard that they were in locked posts to the community, meaning a community member would have had to have reported them.

Still if I were going to be posting material so far into the gray that the vast majority of non-fannish people would see it as black, I'd have taken a lot more precautions.

Thank you for the points of LJ. I'm getting very tired of reading posts that thinks that anyone complaining about LJ customer service is acting like an "entitled drama queen." ...Although, I expect that many of the rants are really directed at the real ones.

[identity profile] boldmarauder.livejournal.com 2007-08-05 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said. Hope you don't mind that I friended you so I can follow your sane commentary. You can bet I won't recommend lj to my friends or family after this customer service debacle. My kids are all on facebook. They wouldn't consider using lj anyway.

[identity profile] wanderlight.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 02:21 am (UTC)(link)
*claps*

This is the most intelligent, cohesive post I have heard on the topic so far, and the only one out of them all which I agree with completely. :)
lassarina: (Default)

[personal profile] lassarina 2007-08-06 02:40 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! (Here via metafandom.) Honestly, I don't *care* if LJ doesn't want sexually explicit content of whatever kind on their servers. Their servers, their choice. But they need to TELL US what we can and cannot have. Clearly and in black and white. Much like Fanfiction.net did five years ago when they said we couldn't have porn and we complied (more or less.)

[identity profile] secondalto.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 03:04 am (UTC)(link)
I knew I read your journal for a reason (and recently friended it). Yours is one of the best thought out and written reponses to everything that is going on.

[identity profile] starblade-enkai.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold LiveJournal, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any alleged claim or demand, including reasonable attorney fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of your Content, your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the TOS, or your violation of any rights of another, whether you are a registered user or not. The user is solely responsible for his or her actions when using the Service, including, but not limited to, costs incurred for Internet access.

So basically what they're doing is legal. Stupid? Yes. Shady? Of course. Immoral? DEFINATELY! Illegal? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[identity profile] claireoujisama.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 07:24 am (UTC)(link)
Finally, a post that seems to have some genuine reasoning behind it. I am also only pissed off in the sense this is Some Major Freaky Shit going down and I only heard about it vaguely through my flist. If el-jay is up in arms redoing its TOS, shouldn't I, as a paid user, been made aware of this given they apparently reserve the right to suspend my account without warning nor remuneration? Oh, no, I just have to sift through the hysterical rants to try and work out what in God's name is actually happening, and how much is just hearsay and conjecture.

With that said, however, I am not impressed by the foresight of many people on both sides of the fence. This isn't an issue isolated to livejournal. Yes, they're dealing with this in a manner that makes one want to stick one's head in a blender and hit "purée," but it doesn't change the fact that this will happen wherever the so-called "fendom" concentrates itself. At its heart this is a cultural issue, more to do with the social environment in which livejournal operates. If people are willing to go out into the big bad world and make their own blogging/network sites (something I view with a great deal of caution, given I believe there's a desperate naïvete here that doesn't take into account how livejournal itself came into being, nor the reasons why it evolved into the corporate structure it now operates under), why can't they turn that passion to exploring why a culture that will go to war for freedom of expression for a repressed populace has a tendency to do the same on its own soil to its own people?

But I don't want to get up on a political soapbox, because my interest in politics and my understanding of it waxes and wanes with how much sleep I've had. I'm just glad to see someone with a voice being heard in this ruckus is seeing this sensibly. It gives me a bit more hope about the situation; now, if only livejournal could pull the bloody finger out and start talking to its customer base...

[identity profile] jehnt.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
To chime in with everyone else: exactly.

[identity profile] whisperwords.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm going to link this post to my flist, it's one of the best posts I've seen on the entire subject of LJ/6A and this "boldthrough" business. I think you've made some very, very good points.

Poor customer service

[identity profile] lazigyrl.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 03:46 pm (UTC)(link)
It's been my problem since day one, how LJ/6A is handling the situation. By now we should have some more clarification of the whole ToS issue, but I swear their few attempts have been confusing, not clarifying.

One source I came across said that in the notice to one of deletions, lj abuse stated it was deleted because it was "lacking artistic merit" and not due to the violating ToS illegal content rules (ie. not because of under-age material). I'd point you to the source, but it was deleted along with all other comments relating to [livejournal.com profile] burr86's faux pas. I do know Ponderosa wasn't the only delete, just the most famous one, so maybe talking about another user?

If there is any truth, then I'd really like need to know what LJ/6A deems worthy of "artistic merit". I don't even come close to the "under age" issue when I play at being an author, but "artistic merit", now that is wide open to whatever they are feeling that day unless they explain it somewhere.

Understand that I am at no point disputing their right to have these rules. Private company, I get that. It's just as a customer, I really need to know what they are because, hey, my writing is why I have an lj. And if I am at risk of violating, then I'll pull up stakes and go elsewhere. Not that they care, I guess, since I am permanent and therefore possibly a dry well in their eyes. Because their shortsightedness in handling customers makes me think they aren't counting the people I've talked into getting an lj and other friends/family I may still have.

[identity profile] neverneverfic.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 09:46 pm (UTC)(link)
sing it sister.

Why I Think It Relates To Fandom

[identity profile] bad-wolf-bitch.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with most everything you said here, and said it beautifully.

But, fandom is at issue, and here's why...

Back in the day, when El Jay was a wittle bitty tadpole and Brad was trying to pay the electric bill, he very directly courted fandom. He said that this site was a place for fandom to be creative and to grow. He was involved in Fandom Wank and several other fandom related comms. Fandom came here and spent money. They bought paid accounts. They bought permanent accounts. Fandom writers who roleplay have MULTIPLE paid accounts. We're icon whores. We buy the extra icons. We pay for accounts for our friends. I had, at one point, twelve paid and three sponsored accounts. They love us when we spend the money. They NEEDED us when they were growing.

Now, fandom is like that smelly, embarassing relative that shows up at Thanksgiving dinner, and everyone rolls their eyes at them. But that embarassing relative brought the pumpkin pie, and everyone wants pie, so they let him stay, but they spit in his cranberry sauce.

Livejournal wasn't "too cool" for fandom years ago, when they needed us to make a pie. And we've supported them with loyalty and MONEY, all the time. So if El Jay wants us to take our pumpkin pies and go someplace else, that's fine. We'll go. But I want my money back. Plain and simple. I want every stinking nickel back from those greedy, two faced liars, every single one I ever spent here. Because they didn't treat us like an embarassment when they needed us to build their wealth. They lied, and they deceived, right up to the last permanent account sale, when they vaguely bullshitted us with their promises of warnings and fair play.

Piss poor customer service? Yeah. But it's more than that at the heart of the fury for fandom. They used us to build their little family, and then screwed us over AFTER they got their Beemers and multi-millions. And that makes me want to smash that pie right in Brad's face, the coward, because he isn't man enough to come out and say, "Haha, fandom, fuck you.".

Their contempt for us, as a customer base THEY sought out and used is despicable. So, yes, it really has to do with fandom, in the sense that they courted us and then pitched us when they didn't need us anymore. And I don't write underaged porn, and I resent their employee stating that I am a pedophile.

Take a look at the main page for LJ. See what it says? An OPEN community. False advertising, mixed with betrayal of their customers. Livejournal stinks.
ext_6368: cherry blossoms on a tree -- with my fandom name "EntreNous" on it (Default)

[identity profile] entrenous88.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with you on the customer-service angle, definitely.

I do think, though, that there's been an odd sense of, "Oh, well, it's all right then," since the Memorial Day/Strikethrough events. So in some ways, people relaxed too much -- I know I initially locked some particular posts, then unlocked them. I think what I'll do now is put that possibly-at-issue material on my website, and link to it on LJ only, but not post it here.

Anyway. I guess also the whole "if it's art, we won't touch it," and the various test cases that seemed to go through that litmus all right, gave people more false reassurance to unlock/not to lock.

I don't think that was *wise*, by any accounts. But I can understand how people who have been here, in some cases for years and years without issue, thought that they would be all right in keeping their graphics/art unprotected.

I did think at least one of the works in question *was* locked, though -- so partly it's not safe no matter how we treat things here. Better to link to an offsite location, I guess.
ext_6886: I made this! (Default)

[identity profile] theantijoss.livejournal.com 2007-08-06 11:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, yes, and also, YES. We can complain about feeling as though our freedom of expression may be challenged, but people who scream about "free speech"... well, I don't think that term means what they think it does. There's no government interference going on here. No one is saying that you'll be arrested or shot or... really anything if you say something or paint/draw/write/etc something that LJ decides (arbitrarily, based on its fuzzy CYA TOS which they refuse to clarify) is unacceptable. You just lose all privileges in regard to their privately held service.

As you so aptly said, the issue here is one of 1.) respect toward the customer base AND content providers who make this community what it is, and 2.) Basic customer service -- neither of which LJ/6A has provided. In fact, the underhanded, shady, dishonest way they have handled the entire situation is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They very purposefully did NOT clarify their stance on the fuzzy TOS, because that would be effectively saying, "Fandom, we find you distasteful and you make us look bad, so please go away and stop making us look like a poor investment/public stock offering."

Because if they were honest and came right out and stated that, then we would freak out, wank a little, but then shrug, pack up our toys, and take our money and content creation elsewhere. They know full well that by doing it this way, picking off a few questionable or less defensible examples at a time, PLUS changing the suspension format so it's less noticeable, will allow fan apathy, laziness, and general refusal/inability to ban together and do anything en masse to leave enough of us here to continue to be a viable support beam in the 6A/LJ infrastructure.

Wow, I really didn't mean to babble this much in your LJ, Liz. What I meant to say was, "YEAH!" and thanks for keeping us informed, as usual. I'm still cross posting here, but my primary residence is moving to IJ -- also based on your research and recommendations. :)

[identity profile] lemongrove.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you for putting so many of our scattered thoughts into a clear and well-reasoned package!

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring the information of LJ/6As poor customer service during this whole thing to a wider venue -- I'm thinking of something along the lines of The Consumerist (http://www.consumerist.com) which has a fairly large reader base and which deals with this type of thing specifically (spreading the word about companies that play fast and loose with their consumer base). The whole nature of the fandom entanglements makes it difficult, possibly, but gah IDK

/pointless rambling!

Again, thank you for writing this!

[identity profile] lee-rowan.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 03:13 am (UTC)(link)
Just a suggestion... I'm sure LiveJournal's home base has a Better Business Bureau, and they now have an online system for filing written complaints...
ext_1565: G's telling the truth about future and technology! (Default)

[identity profile] normaltrouble.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
I am beginning to expand and polish my business communications skills and knowledge, in order to advance in my work life and career. I recently realized that customer service has a whole lot to do with business communications, and have been studying that as well. I work with customers everyday, and am eager to learn new ways of handling the myriad of problems that come up.

Just when you "learn" one way of handling something-- new technology, new paradigms of customer service culture keeps popping up in the wood works.
I think from what I've read so far, business communications and customer service is in flux due to the rapidly changing needs of the economy, technology, of what customers expect.

So something doesn't work? You sit down and figure on eating humble pie and relearn it-even if, sigh, it's only 30% different from what you already know to do! You may have done it for years, but things change and different audiences need different approaches.

It's hard to roll with the punches over the years, but hey, we all do it. I am on a learning curve myself, maybe just maybe 6A/LJ can take the same attitude, and actually redefine and refine their approach to LJ.
Or not.

As you say, if Superduper Neighborhood Joint Pizza place which has made superb pizzas for years, sells to another larger company, or new management, and the pizza tastes lousy, the service is slow, and you don't feel as welcome--you'll probably choose Another Marvelous Pizza Parlor down the way, that still is really good, maybe getting better.
Customers leave. They find better pizza or switch to tacos.

Thanks for a great read! I thought through some customer service issues, and I really thinks this clarifies part of the whole issue.

[identity profile] kenderlyn.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 05:38 am (UTC)(link)
Well said. I'm not going anywhere... yet. But my journal is backed up on both InsaneJournal and GreatestJournal, and I refuse to pay another cent for subpar service. Basically, I'm biding my time. And half following the friends that have packed up and moved on.

[identity profile] serendu.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
Pissed-off customers have a nasty habit of biting the corporate hand.

And then they take their business elsewhere.


So very true. Thank you for such an eloquent post.
amaresu: Sapphire and Steel from the opening (atlantis-pondering)

[personal profile] amaresu 2007-08-07 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I would be fired if I pulled half the crap that LJ/6A have pulled. I work in customer service and this is just appalling behavior. Good customer service will get me to stay with a company past when I'm really happy with the service. Good customer service will get me to spend a bit more money then I previously intended. Bad customer service makes me walk away without looking back.

And really? The thing that will get me to leave LJ is the customer service. Clarify what I can and can not do and I will abide by the rules. Don't tell me and I'll leave for someplace that will.

[identity profile] beadattitude.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you Liz, I've been really needing some clear help wading through this.

[identity profile] iamrosalita.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 02:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with everything you've said. So much of this drama could have been avoided if LJ/6A had just spelled out what they find unacceptable. I really can't figure out why they won't. Could it be that they don't really know themselves? Or "they'll know it when they see it"? Who knows?

I do know this, until they do spell it out, anyone who posts anything that could be construed as underage sex is, as you say, stupid.

wordy mcword word

[identity profile] darkrhiannon.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 04:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for saying it so succinctly.

[identity profile] kudra2324.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
my issue with the "it's not about free speech, because lj is a private company" is just that lj has been claiming to use a legal test that is the result of jurisprudence related to free speech. so if that's what they say they're doing, they should actually do that.

[identity profile] measi.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. Well said - on all points.

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